Islamic Presenation causes Contreversy in Houston Area Junior High

Kwame,

It is the one religion right now that is getting bastardized by a lot of it's leaders.

If it is a religion of peace - then someone needs to tell the Mullahs in Iran, and Afganastan etc..etc..etc..

DD

 

I just asked, Lil Pun. I'm not insulting your character. I've already told you in this very thread I find you to be very respectful.

 

And just a few posts ago you basically shrugged it off as a "big deal!"

Something tells me if the graffiti had been a swastika or a hanging noose you may have a slightly different reaction. But then again, you might not because you don't think these types of crimes exist in the first place, or that they're unique from others. It's just us living in a "PC world" where hanging a noose, drawing a swastika, calling some ethnic kid a "wetback" or a "*****r" or a "kike" or a "raghead" is all in just good fun; it's kids being kids. It's the PC Police that are the problem here.

 

It is a big deal to the guys who did the crime, punish them, deal with it.....don't bow down to CAIR because they make some threat about hate crimes...that is a strong arm tactic that is completly PC....

Something tells me you are trying to move the goal posts.

This is not about Islam, or Christian or Jew, or Hindu, this is about a Principal going against her mandate and scheduling a presentation by a group tied to the TERRORIST organization Hamas. (Keep on ignoring that though)

But primarily it is about the parents not being talked to first.

Switching gears to the other discussion we are having:

More from the Discovery article about Science clashing with Islam:

"Critics are quick to point out that Islamic scientists tend to use each other as sources, creating an illusion that the work has been validated by research. The existence of 360 joints, in fact, is not accepted in medical communities; rather, the number varies from person to person, with an average of 307. These days most geologists divide Earth’s crust into 15 major zones, or tectonic plates.

El-Naggar even sees moral meaning in the earthquake that triggered the 2005 tsunami and washed away nearly a quarter of a million lives. Plate tectonics and global warming be damned: God had expressed his wrath over the sins of the West. Why, then, had God punished Southeast Asia rather than Los Angeles or the coast of Florida? His answer: Because the lands that were hit had tolerated the immoral behavior of tourists."

I mean COME ON !!! ^^^^^



DD

 

To be fair, DaDa, this is what the discussion is about to you now. With newly found facts. It's not at all what the discussion has been.

 

Actually, I knew about Cair all along, I just sort of thought it was not as important as the parents being notified. But when I was reading the thread, I somehow missed this nugget:

Which is why I brought it up, and posted this article linking CAIR to Hamas

Then the discussion morphed into Islam Vs. Science (which is where a lot of my beef lies with religion in general)

The newly found facts are about the principal......which adds even more validity to my argument.

And I do not appreciate strong arm tactics by a group tied to terrorists hiding behind a cloak of acceptance.......

I believe Islam to be a very intolerant religion and that is a problem for me.

DD

 

But your last post said, "this isn't about islam or christianity or etc etc."

Your initial posts in this thread, which you repeated adamantly, was that religion has no place in public schools. And we all had discussion surrounding that point and this particular instance.

Only this morning did it shift to anything about a principal's mandate and a connection to Hamas. I'll agree wholeheartedly that if the principal was told not to do this by administrators and did it anyway, then she needs to be reprimanded at the very least...that's an entirely different discussion though than 90% of this thread.

 

So it used to be guided by scientific principles earlier on when Muslims made all those scientific advances, and now that the Islamic world is no longer the 'bastion' of science it's because "Muslims are guided by the Koran"? How convenient.

The assumption that some how Muslim countries take the Koran as their only guide (despite the fact that many of them have secular institutions and certainly secular education) and that's what's "holding them back" is beyond ridiculous. Certainly, religious dogma in the form of the Taliban is a problem, but all I need to do to dispel the myth of the "Koran" holding back scientific advances by Muslims is to point to landmark scientific advances by earlier Muslims, as well as modern-day Muslims who do not necessarily live in Muslim-majority societies...unless, of course, we somehow consider those Muslims to be "bad Muslims" who didn't follow their religious edicts to stay home and beat their wives.

I think focus on Islamic education absent emphasis on the hard sciences is definitely a problem in some Muslim-majority states. But that would make it a problem with educational emphasis that favors theology over science, meaning a curriculum problem. That's a fair point, but that's an entirely different one from implying that Koranic commandments instruct Muslims to abandon science, which is completely unfounded and, in fact, is easily countered with texts directly taken from the Koran.

Emphasis on theological studies over science is an issue in some Muslim-majority states, that's true. That's a man-made educational policy that should be changed, it's not taken from the Koran itself. Along the same lines, secular education in the majority of developing states is an absolute disaster as well, but again that's more related to failing educational institutions and educational policies, and it's not just a problem in the Muslim world; you have an entire bloc of African and Asian and Latin American countries that suffer from similar setbacks. That, along with many other factors, affects scientific ingenuity and creativity a lot more than some imaginary religious 'wall' that instructs followers not to pursue scientific knowledge.

Also, as I've already pointed out, many of the scientists in this world are immigrants from developing nations. For instance, in the West there are thousands upon thousands of scientists who're immigrants, many of whom left their countries and are now able to pursue their research in the West, due to better funding and better support/endowment for their work. Even in the most secular of developing states, the problem is often lack of support/emphasis on supporting scientific research, especially under corrupt regimes who have little interest in investing in their own people. It's mostly a systemic issue than otherwise.

That's because it's an idiotic argument used/raised by Islamophobes everywhere to discredit CAIR as a civil rights organization. It's been discussed here and elsewhere before whenever it was brought up, so refer to those threads if you want to.

I can tell you for a fact that DHS, the FBI and other organizations have thoroughly vetted CAIR as an organization and not only have nothing against them to bring up in a court of law, but in fact regularly cooperate with them in law enforcement matters and even use their services to train/educate law enforcement agents on cultural matters. CAIR has been a huge asset for law enforcement in this country, I can tell you that from a first-person perspective as someone who would know this for a fact. Moreover, if rhetoric counts for anything, they've been far and away the most vocal/persistent denouncers of terrorism and have publicly funded multi-million dollar projects just to prove that they're sincere about it (they expected the usual detractors, like yourself, that would accuse them of insincerity and cooperation with terrorists).

So if you're insinuating that the federal government and federal law enforcement officials, whom have been very aggressive in prosecuting even sometimes the weakest of terrorism-related cases, are a bunch of terrorist lovers, then I will gladly pass that on.

 

Agreed, I did not know she was told not to do it, which makes it much worse than even I originally thought.

As I said the connection to Hamas was brought about when I was reading through the thread and missed Tiger talking about the good that CAIR does in helping people understand Islam.

I found that hypocritical to say the least.

DD

 

But I was speaking about those specific countries where the Islamic faith or interpetation of it is holding back science, then I showed you an article from a credible source speaking to that topic.

I find it ironic because the Arab/Muslim world used to lead in the world of science but has since fallen behind......partially because of the teachings of the Koran.

Yes, agreed. Some texts say pursue science but others stand firmly in the way.

But it is man interpetting the Koran, and the text that is written. If it says there are 360 joints in the human body, how is that a basis of interpetation?

Link me up to articles that say what you are saying above that are NOT biased and are from legitimate news sources, and I will back off that stance.

CAIR sued an Anti CAIR website and lost

Link to ANTI CAIR website - admittadly SEVERLY biased, but not changed due to CAIR's lawsuit

DD

 

God is for all humans as Creator and Sustainer! This is a universal concept!
The problem is although the majority of religions hold this to be true they have gone away from sharing their commonality.

If Muslims truly love God and respect His Creation they would condemn by excommunicating all terrorist fractions within their ranks and also the Muslims who financially support/fund the terrorist activities of their religion.

Hatred and murder are in no way the activities of someone who is Godly!

 

And in case Tiger you find those articles too biased here is what other MUSLIM organizations had to say about CAIR

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Of particular note are the American Muslims who reject CAIR's claim to speak on their behalf. The late Seifeldin Ashmawy, publisher of the New Jersey-based Voice of Peace, called CAIR the champion of "extremists whose views do not represent Islam."

Jamal Hasan of the Council for Democracy and Tolerance explains that CAIR's goal is to spread "Islamic hegemony the world over by hook or by crook."

Kamal Nawash, head of Free Muslims Against Terrorism, finds that CAIR and similar groups condemn terrorism on the surface while endorsing an ideology that helps foster extremism, adding that "almost all of their members are theocratic Muslims who reject secularism and want to establish Islamic states."

Tashbih Sayyed of the Council for Democracy and Tolerance calls CAIR "the most accomplished fifth column" in the United States.

And Stephen Schwartz of the Center on Islamic Pluralism writes that "CAIR should be considered a foreign-based subversive organization, comparable in the Islamist field to the Soviet-controlled Communist Party, USA."

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Sorry Tiger, but I think CAIR is hardly a peaceful organization and I can't believe anyone would want them speaking at a public school....

You consistently accuse me of being uninformed, but to me it looks the opposite, especially regarding CAIR.

DD

 

Who made that "switch"?

That's what's so ridiculous about your approach. The principal has a Muslim relative, so that automatically means she was part of a grand conspiracy to convert middle school kids to Islam. You don't need any proof for anything, you just see a very, very spurious connection and you take it and run with it.

You know what? She's also a Hamas-loving terrorist sympathizer. Let's throw that out there for a good measure, it's about as true as what you originally stated.

More assumptions...

BINGO! Therein is the key. That's what you want to say all along, it's what your entire argument is centered around.

I will bow out from this thread for now, continue to engage in your drivel. I will check back from time to time to make sure I don't miss links to my semi-weekly dose of left-wing/right-wing militant drivel, courtesy of DaDa.

 

Oh, I didn't deem your inquiry to be insulting at all.

 

I brought it out as a matter of interest....my fault entirely.

Wait, so you bow out? I bring out links from MUSLIM leaders decrying CAIR, and you bow out?

I mean honestly? You bow out? Without even acknowledging the matter?

Tiger, we may not agree, at all, but I do respect you as a person and poster.

Even on matters we don't agree on, I at least try to read your posts and thoughts.......

I am certianly NOT a fan of Islam, nor religion in general, but believe it or not, I am willing to listen, just don't be surprised if I come back with a different viewpoint.


DD

 

Proof? Provide me with theological proof that the Koran is "holding back" scientific advancement.

Again...which ones? Point me to them. I have a copy of the Koran handy here, so check back with me for proof, please.

There is nothing specific about "360 joints" in the Koran. Again, please point me to Koranic texts that back up your -- or the article's -- assertions. Pointing to news articles is not "proof", all it is is opinion and innuendos. Same goes for op-eds and speculations about "ties" that haven't been proven in a court of law. In this case, since the Koran is being specifically mentioned as the culprit, I need proof from the Koran that backs up those assertions. I am genuinly interested.

Since I can't provide said "evidence," I will go ahead and agree with you that they're a front for Hamas. I certainly have always had my doubts.

 

If you have had your doubts why post that they are a good organization? You said:

And then I refuted that with quotes from Muslim leaders about the agenda of CAIR......it seems you are the one speaking in absolutes here........again, how do you explain this statement

Yet all of the sudden you just back off and go....ok, maybe I am wrong about CAIR......huh???????????????

As for the Koran etc, if you read that article it has enough in there to figure out where I am coming from.....and the scientists quoted in that article about the matter are much more in tune with it than I....

And I do respect you as a poster and as a person, but I have serious issues with Islam in general.

DD

 

They've done a lot of "good work", mostly in assisting with federal law enforcement work. Of course, that doesn't mean there are no 'shady characters' in that organization (or any other, really). That being said, in America we have this weird notion of justice, "innocent until proven guilty." CAIR reps have even helped out our law enforcement in matters of intelligence gathering (e.g. reporting suspicious behavior/contacts or persons). They've even trained our counterterrorism special agents. It's not because federal law enforcement agents are 'gullible' (they've certainly kept a close eye on CAIR and others), it's because there is no sufficient evidence leading to a conclusion that CAIR is a 'threat' to national security, or that they can't be trusted, or that they've in fact provided material/moral support for terrorism. They're all spurious links, with no actual proof provided. If there was a shred of evidence that would hold up in a court of law (not the court of public opinion), we would have prosecuted.

So believe what you may, I really have to bow out now...I have work to do.

 

That was never the issue...

 

Agreed on that.

As for the issue you agreed with me early in this thread we just got off on our usual Tiger defending Islam and DD questioning it rants.

Probably to the detriment of the board as a whole.


I would be curious to know what the defenders of the assembly have to say now that it has been proven that CAIR has a major agenda.

DD