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Islamic honor killings - why the perps get off easy?

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by AroundTheWorld, Nov 23, 2010.

  1. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist

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    Because genius, Islam was exported by Arabs so obviously their culture was exported to the exact same places.

    Also, it's not that you're NOT arguing the first part, it's that you can not do so. There is no argument.

    The only thing you can argue is that Honor killings are common with Muslims. This could mean several things, for example:

    1) Islam condones it.
    2) It is a trait of the people who exported Islam, or those who taught it early.
    3) It has something to do with hot temperatures in countries.
    4) It is the most incredible statistical anomaly in history.
    5) There are Muslims Muftis who condone it, and their followers (who by definition have blind faith in their Mufti AND do not speak Arabic themselves) have not analyzed the association.
    6) So on and so forth.

    In such a list, the only thing you can cross out is number 1 because there is written proof that refutes it. There is written proof that the opposite is true.

    All other possibilities are up for debate. That one possibility can not even be debated because it is the only one where there is proof against it.

    Why does it happen with FAR lower frequency in Iran and Turkey, incidentally the two countries which have a thorough disdain for Arab's role in spreading Islam and insist on separating Arab culture from Islam? Why is it so prevalent in countries that are in fact Arabic? Why is it more prevalent in countries where Arab tribalism latched on to Islam? Why do Albanian Muslims rarely do this, incidentally they are some Muslims who de-arabized Islam and created a kind of different Islamic religion? Why is it not common with the Nation of Islam?

    If you WANTED to think about it for one second, you would have figured it out even before copying and pasting that article. But you didn't.

    At least you gave me the opportunity, in the form of this thread, to dispel this myth in the minds of others. I sincerely doubt anyone is more aware about ISLAMIC HONOR KILLINGS, or that anyone just found out about it, as a result of your thread. But I'm sure at least a couple of people will be surprised to realize that Islam completely and unequivocally condemns honor killings, and literally states it.
     
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  2. ChrisBosh

    ChrisBosh Member

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    LOL you down to name calling now huh? I was talking on the phone so I wasn't very particularly interested in the writer being a man or woman, doesn't really make a difference, does it?!!



    Also obviously meforum site did not write it, but the study was performed by the lady you mentioned and SHE had it published in THEIR JOURNAL (they just republished it on their website....GET IT?). Think of why she would accept the study being published in a journal that is tied with a mission statement as I posted above? BECAUSE no other objective journal would want crap like that. Plus, lookie what I found here http://www.phyllis-chesler.com/764/worldwide-trends-in-honor-killings ......enough said.
     
  3. AroundTheWorld

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    Out of that list, only 2) and 5) remain. Both, while not directly traced to the quran, are directly linked to islam. How can you say it has nothing to do with islam while at the same time giving an example of islamic muftis condoning it (which is true, that happens a lot)? Are muslim muftis not representatives of the faith?


    When it happens in Germany, it is mostly Turkish people (I think actually mostly Turkish people of Kurdish descent, if I am not mistaken), so I am not sure it is that much less frequent there.

    I don't know the answers to all these questions, but I would say that a Korean buddhist is far less likely to do it than an Albanian muslim.

    I don't see how you dispelled a myth here? :confused: In fact, you implicitly confirmed that it is common within the muslim world, and you also gave an interesting explanation: Arab tribalism latched onto islam, and that form of islam got exported to the world.

    I understand your point about the "original" islam not only not condoning, but condemning it, but what matters is the state of islam today. And it is a sad fact that honor killings are a part of islamic culture across the world today - as you said, more so the more you talk about the form of islam that arab tribalism has latched on to.
     
    #23 AroundTheWorld, Nov 23, 2010
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2010
  4. s land balla

    s land balla Member

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    Re: German-Turk honor killings --

    <embed src="http://www.npr.org/v2/?i=4565134&m=4565135&t=audio" height="386" wmode="opaque" allowfullscreen="true" width="400" base="http://www.npr.org" type="application/x-shockwave-flash"></embed>
     
  5. trustme

    trustme Member

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    awww ****.
     
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  6. trustme

    trustme Member

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    None of it remains ^^
     
  7. AroundTheWorld

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    http://www.spiegel.de/international/0,1518,344374,00.html

    The Death of a Muslim Woman
    "The w**** Lived Like a German"



    In the past four months, six Muslim women living in Berlin have been brutally murdered by family members. Their crime? Trying to break free and live Western lifestyles. Within their communities, the killers are revered as heroes for preserving their family dignity. How can such a horrific and shockingly archaic practice be flourishing in the heart of Europe? The deaths have sparked momentary outrage, but will they change the grim reality for Muslim women?

    [​IMG]
    Hatin Surucu just wanted to live her own life. Instead, she became Berlin's latest victim of honor killings. Her Turkish Muslim brothers allegedly gunned her down for adopting Western ways.

    The shots came from nowhere and within minutes the young Turkish mother standing at the Berlin bus stop was dead. A telephone call from a relative had brought her to this cold, unforgiving place. She thought she would only be gone for a few minutes and wore a light jacket in the freezing February wind. She had left her five-year-old son asleep in his bed. He awoke looking for his mother, who, like many Turkish women in Germany, harbored a secret life of fear, courage and, ultimately, grief. Now her little boy has his own tragedy to bear: His mother, Hatin Surucu, was not the victim of random violence, but likely died at the hands of her own family in what is known as an "honor killing."

    Hatin's crime, it appears, was the desire to lead a normal life in her family's adopted land. The vivacious 23-year-old beauty, who was raised in Berlin, divorced the Turkish cousin she was forced to marry at age 16. She also discarded her Islamic head scarf, enrolled in a technical school where she was training to become an electrician and began dating German men. For her family, such behavior represented the ultimate shame -- the embrace of "corrupt" Western ways. Days after the crime, police arrested her three brothers, ages 25, 24 and 18. The youngest of the three allegedly bragged to his girlfriend about the Feb. 7 killing. At her funeral, Hakin's Turkish-Kurdish parents draped their only daughter's casket in verses from the Koran and buried her according to Muslim tradition. Absent of course, were the brothers, who were in jail.

    The crime might be easier to digest if it had been an archaic anomaly, but five other Muslim women have been murdered in Berlin during the past four months by their husbands or partners for besmirching the family's Muslim honor. Two of them were stabbed to death in front of their young children, one was shot, one strangled and a fifth drowned. It seems hard to fathom, but in the middle of democratic Western Europe -- in Germany, a nation where pacifism is almost a universal mantra -- murderous macho patriotism not only exists but also appears to be thriving. It may even be Germany's liberalism -- and its post World War II fear of criticizing minority cultures -- that has encouraged ultra-religious families to settle here.

    The problem is that much of this insular and ultra-religious world is out of public view, often hidden in inner-city apartments where the most influential links to the outside world are satellite dishes that receive Turkish and Arabic television and the local mosque. Tens of thousands of Turkish women live behind these walls of silence, in homes run by husbands many met on their wedding day and ruled by the ever-present verses of the Koran. In these families, loyalty and honor are elevated virtues and women are treated little better than slaves, unseen by society and often unnoticed or ignored by their German neighbors. To get what they want, these women have to run. They have to change their names, their passports, even their hair color and break with the families they often love, but simply can no longer obey.

    [​IMG]
    Turkish women who have fled their husbands and violent marriages and live in a shelter take a stroll in Munich's Olympic Park. The women, activists say, live in constant fear that their husbands or families will find them and abuse or kill them.

    Precise statistics on how many women die every year in such honor killings are hard to come by, as many crimes are never reported, said Myria Boehmecke of the Tuebingen-based women's group Terre des Femmes which, among other things, tries to protect Muslim girls and women from oppressive families. The Turkish women's organization Papatya has documented 40 instances of honor killings in Germany since 1996. Examples include a Darmstadt girl whose two brothers pummelled her to death with a hockey stick in April 2004 after they learned she had slept with her boyfriend. In Augsburg in April, a man stabbed his wife and 7-year-old daughter because the wife was having an affair. In December 2003, a Tuebingen father strangled his 16-year-old daughter and threw her body into a lake because she had a boyfriend. Bullets, knives, even axes and gasoline are the weapons of choice. The crime list compiled by Papatya is an exercise in horror. And the sad part, said Boehmecke, is that it is far from complete. "We'll never really know how many victims there are. Too often these crimes go unreported."
    In many cases, fathers -- and sometimes even mothers -- single out their youngest son to do the killing, Boehmecke said, "because they know minors will get lighter sentences from German judges." In some cases, these boys are revered by their community and fellow inmates as "honor heroes" -- a dementedly skewed status they carry with them for the rest of their lives. Currently, six boys are serving time in Berlin's juvenile prison for honor killings. "In a way, these boys are victims, too," she said. Sometimes they are forced to kill their favorite sister.

    PAGE TWO: "These girls are frightened for their lives"

    One of the unsettling truths about Hatin's death and the plight of many Muslim women is that it took the comments of three Turkish boys and the outrage of a male school director to get people to notice. When the murder first happened, it sent no shock waves through the mainstream German press. It only became big news when a group of 14-year-old Turkish boys mocked Hatin during a class discussion at a school near the crime scene. One boy said, "She only had herself to blame," while another insisted, "She deserved what she got. The w**** lived like a German." The enraged school director not only sent a letter home to parents, but also to teachers across Germany. The letter ignited a media fury. Less known, however, is that the letter also hit a nerve among educators. "Teachers from across the country wrote back saying they had had similar experiences," Boehmecke said. They reported Turkish boys taunting Turkish girls who don't wear headscarves as "German sluts." "That's the part no one has written about. Clearly there is huge potential for similar violence across Germany," Boehmecke said. "Not just in the big cities, but all over. It's a problem many politicians haven't been willing to face."

    But that is not entirely true. Following the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks and the revelation that several of the 9-11 plotters lived hidden lives in the up-scale German city of Hamburg, politicians and everyday Germans have more closely scrutinized the private lives of their friendly Turkish grocers, housecleaners, taxi drivers and even colleagues. At the same time, religious Muslims tightened their ranks, becoming more protective of each other in a world increasingly fearful of and hostile toward Islam.

    German legislators, for their part, began rethinking the traditional delicacy with which the nation has handled its immigrants. For decades, German legislators lived under the shadow of the country's Third Reich past and the fear of appearing racist if it singled out a particular community or religion for scrutiny or special treatment.

    "People were afraid they would be called Nazis if they dared to bring up issues of human rights in the Turkish community," said Serap Cileli, a Turkish author and filmmaker who at 15 was forced into an arranged marriage.

    When Cileli fell in love with another Turkish man and threatened to break free, her mother came to Turkey, kidnapped her two children and took them to Germany. She then gave Cileli an ultimatum: give up the lover or never see the kids again. At first Cileli chose the kids and a life in Germany. But unlike many other stories, hers has a happy ending -- the lover later followed her to Germany and, after an enormous struggle with her family, the pair married and now live together with her children. She has written prodigiously about her experiences and now helps Turkish women escape oppressive families.

    For the greater part of a decade, however, Cileli was unable to find a publisher for her work. "Everything I wrote from 1994 to 1999 was rejected, even by newspapers," she said. "They told me I was writing about a minority issue and they were afraid of appearing racist." That changed following Sept. 11, she said, when suddenly the hidden lives of Muslims became a hot topic and her writing and views are now widely published and even translated into her native Turkish.

    Last year, a virtual tectonic shift occurred when Germany -- long considered a Mecca of religious tolerance by Muslims -- took its first step toward enforced secularism. Five of the nation's 16 states voted to ban teachers and other public officials from wearing headscarves to work. In October, after much lobbying, Turkish women's groups scored a coup when the government passed a law making it illegal for parents to force their children to marry. Turkey, a secular Muslim state, has long had such a law.

    The November murder in neighboring Holland of filmmaker Theo van Gogh -- who was shot and stabbed to death by an Islamic extremist angry over his depiction of the violence inflicted on Muslim women in forced marriages -- galvanized the Netherlands and sent shock waves across Europe. As a result, Germans, too, began to take a second look at the 3.2 million immigrants -- 2.5 million of whom are Turkish -- living among them and to talk about the serious flaws of the nation's 1960's immigration policies. The program brought thousands of Turkish workers to Germany, but provided no real means of integrating the Muslim Turks or helping them understand Western concepts like individualism, human rights and equality. Now, Cileli said, perhaps, honor killings and other horrors experienced by Muslim women will finally be given the scrutiny they have long deserved.

    Frightened for their lives

    [​IMG]
    Muslim women often live insular lives focused on family and religion. How they live at home often clashes greatly with the society they are surrounded by.

    The new laws are a vital step toward empowerment, said Cileli, but unfortunately, the corpses of disobedient women offer a more compelling reason for many young women to stay put. Plus, she said, laws don't take into account the psychological terror under which the women live. "These girls are frightened for their lives," she said. "If they do manage to get away, it would be an illusion to say the girls would run to the police." Besides, laws only cover civil marriages -- not religious ones. In many cases, families force their young daughters into Muslim weddings at very young ages (sometimes as early as 12 years old) and then only unite the couple civilly when the girls turn 18.
    Though subtle, evidence of the seclusion in which religious Muslim women live in Germany abounds. Turkish tea rooms are often packed with men, while women are often at home caring for children. They rarely can be seen on the streets alone after dark. At a memorial vigil held a few weeks after Hatin's death, a mere 120 people showed up. Almost none were Turkish. In fact, most were from a lesbian and gay organization that -- outraged by the crime -- organized the make-shift ceremony.

    The ceremony underscored another disturbing reality: It is often not the Muslim community that first expresses outrage over how its women live, but those on the outside. "It's often very frustrating for us that more doesn't come from within," Boehmecke said. "We've been trying to bring attention to the plight of women for years, but with little success." Cileli sees it in harsher terms. "It not only took the death of a white man" for people to prick up their ears, she said, but of a "white European" man (van Gogh). "A European was killed because he defended us -- and the world press stood up to listen. But how many women died before him?"

    A statistical black hole

    [​IMG]
    A memorial to Hatin, showing her holding her son when he was a baby. That was before she discarded her headscarf and insisted on living as she wanted.


    Astonishingly, the first extensive data the German government collected about the lives of Turkish women was published last summer, as part of a study done by the Ministry for Family Affairs. The study showed that 49 percent of Turkish women said they had experienced physical or sexual violence in their marriage. One fourth of those married to Turkish husbands said they met their grooms on their wedding day. Half said they were pressured to marry partners selected by relatives and 17 percent felt forced into such partnerships.
    So far, the Turkish community has been sluggish in its response to such data and even to the question of honor killings. But last week -- about three weeks after Hatin's death and under heavy pressure from activists -- the Turkish Association of Berlin and Brandenburg held a round table discussion about the plight of Muslim women. At the talks, the group issued a 10-point plan calling for a "zero tolerance" stance on violence against women and encouraged other Turkish and Islamic organizations to "actively recognize" and address the problem.

    Will it help? Because the group is secular, it will likely have little sway with deeply religious Turks. "The truth is, we can't reach those who aren't interested," the group's spokesman, Cumali Kangal, conceded.

    The response among Germany's devout Muslims is equally tough to gauge as there is no single organization the community looks to for leadership. Instead, the community is divided into about three dozen groups, each with its own leadership. Ali Kizilkaya, the chairman of the Council of Islam, one of the largest umbrella organizations, has decried Hatin's murder as "an abuse and affront to the Muslim religion." He insists Islam does not condone honor killings.

    But try telling that, said Boehmecke, to the hoards of young boys who taunt Turkish girls in schools and their families who tacitly encourage such behavior. Educators at the grassroots say their numbers are rising, she says. Indeed, the German weekly Die Zeit reports that the percent of schoolgirls wearing headscarves in the Berlin district where Hatin was killed has gone from virtually none to about 40 percent in the past three years. Which one of today's smiling schoolgirls, Boehmecke wonders, will be next year's victim of honor?
     
  8. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist

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    No, because to be a representative of the faith you have to be nominated by the faith. Also, the only other way would be if they ARE the faith, which we agree they are not.

    The religion is governed by decrees, not by people. The religion has its own identity and does not need representation.

    Can I now study the Bible and be certified, then decide to represent the Bible and claim that Jesus PBUH was not crucified? No I can not, because that is not what the Bible says.

    At the incredibly far out end of our argument, you MAY be able to say that they are representatives but that's a dead end. If that's true, then they are by definition bad representatives and cannot figure in your theory. We go back to > the people are the problem, not the religion because they are not representing the religion.

    That's because of how many Turkish people there are in Germany. That is also besides the point. I said it happens far far far far less frequently in Turkey than in Arab countries. That is factual.

    Yes I know you would say that. In fact, every single person on this forum knows you would say that. You didn't even have to say it. Everyone unanimously would have agreed that it would be your position before you even typed it.

    You've been so utterly wrong in this thread, I'm surprised you're not drowning in your own fail right now.

    Islam today does completely denounces honor killings. You can not prove otherwise, you have only proven then self-nominated representatives have misrepresented Islam.

    I've said it a million times now. Islam is an entity, it has an identity. A Brad Pitt Fan is not Brad Pitt. A Mufti is not Islam. Islam is the texts which we know, and the texts say: honor killings are a grave sin.

    STIIIIIIIIILLL waiting for you to show that ISLAM (rather than Muslims) condones honor killings. You know damn well that Muslims are not Islam, they are just a part of Islam, and not the part that speaks for Islam.
     
  9. AroundTheWorld

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  10. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist

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    91% by Muslims.

    0% by Islam.

    As I said, that's the one thing you can do. You've completely exposed yourself as someone who twists words. Defaming Islam. Telling lies to everyone.

    You can't even man up and say "ok it's true, some Muslims think it's ok, but Islam completely condemns it."

    Fact buddy. Now rot in your idiotic mess of a thread.
     
  11. AroundTheWorld

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    Same trick you always apply:

    - 16,419 Islamist terrorist acts since 9/11? - "This has nothing to do with Islam, Islam prohibits murder"
    - 91 % Honor killings are commited by muslims? - "This has nothing to do with Islam, Islam prohibits murder"
    - People get sentenced to death, lynched, lashed, stoned in a country with a muslim government because they supposedly "insulted islam"? - "This has nothing to do with islam, it is because people are poor and uneducated".
     
  12. s land balla

    s land balla Member

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    98,170 civilian deaths since the start of the Iraq invasion.
     
  13. DonnyMost

    DonnyMost Member
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    Well, somebody has to keep those trick azz bustas in line.
     
  14. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist

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    6 millions Jews murdered by Germans.

    Muslim gets shot by German.

    Central Banker says Turkish immigrants are stupid.

    Chancellor says multiculturalism is over.

    ......

    OMG, GERMANS HATE BROWN PEOPLE!!! Actually screw that. GERMANY hates brown people.
     
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  15. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist

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    I just also want to rub in that ATW is probably so pissed at the ass-whooping Bayern received at the hands of Roma in the Champions League today, right after their paltry 1-1 draw in the league the other day.

    This follows Germany getting knocked out in the world cup semis, and Bayern knocked out in the Champions league finals last season.

    Not a good time to be ATW. I feel your pain buddy. Let it out. Make another couple of threads, ease the pain.
     
  16. DonnyMost

    DonnyMost Member
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    Petty comments like those above do nothing but make you look small and defeated. ATW may have an agenda, but damned if you guys aren't doing a piss poor job of defending yourselves.
     
  17. rhadamanthus

    rhadamanthus Member

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    I tried to rep you, ATW, but I can't yet. You've done very well in this thread. Kudos.
     
  18. Qball

    Qball Member

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    What about this one?

    Lemme try the ATW formula by now asking you...."Donny, do you support killing civilians?!?!?"

    When you respond with a reasonable answer to clarify the underlying point in your statement, I will completely ignore it and continue to cherry pick other responses to heckle.
     
  19. DonnyMost

    DonnyMost Member
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    The difference is my satirical reference to the most goofy name-calling device ever used in the history of CF.net (by a user who has never even so much as looked at the D&D forum) isn't aimed at anybody in this thread or meant to make a point of any kind as it relates to the topic. It's basically meant to get a chuckle out of MadMax, if he's snooping around. So, if I had a vested interest in the argument, you might have a point.
     
  20. DonnyMost

    DonnyMost Member
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    LOL.

    A religion apologist complaining about people cherry picking.

    Wowzers.
     

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