Again all you are depicting here are a few people who call themselves Muslims doing dumb and violent things. As long you don't call this "Islam", then I completely agree with you. These people are stupid and ignorant for doing/saying the things in those photos.
We call it whatever they call it. And unfortunately, they call it Islam. (and for the 9 billionth time, in case you wanted to go this direction, just because you say Islam is one thing, does not preclude it from being another as well... so don't think it's a characterization of ALL people, etc)
Well that's the root of the issue. You use words like "we" and "they". Do you consider me (a united states citizen who practices Islam as his faith) a part of the "we" or "they"? and stop getting snappy, you wanna discuss let's discuss. No need for sarcasm.
I don't see Donny's post as being snappy. I think it is clear who "they" is referring to and I dont think he meant it in a bad way.
Unfortunately it's not a few. Yes they are in the minority in Islam but it is not a few. Islam extremists are in almost every single muslim country. They are even on the college campuses here in America. True not all of them are as extreme in violence of action but their view points towards Israel and the US are just as extreme.
Obviously for purposes of this discussion, "we" means myself and AroundTheWorld. "They" obviously means the people in those pictures. And can you really blame me? Every time ANYONE posts the words "terrorism" and "Islam" anywhere near each other, someone gets uber defensive and start crying about people characterizing *all* Muslims as terrorists or Islam as teaching *only* violence, which no one has done here. So no, that wasn't sarcasm, that was me sincerely and honestly trying to close the door on that before it came up all over again, which it inevitably would.
Also to add to my point above. These are not the armies of extremists in Afghanistan or Iraq but regular citizens in Europe. If these people are already this extreme imagine how all the insane Jihad murderers are. It's not a few and unfortunately Islam is the only religion today that has these crazy extremists.
Ok, how about the thread of the title? Islam vs Southpark. I'm assuming you didn't think once about how the correct title should be Muslims vs Southpark. I dunno. You'll prolly see it as petty. You may also see me upset about a "random" stop at the airport as petty. Maybe you think it's ok when someone hears my last name at work and says something ignorant like "are you from eye-rack?" because that person saw FOX news show a photo of a Iraqi militant with the same last name. Or when I hear Michael Savage spew out crap about how all Muslims are evil and should be killed. I've said it four times here but I honestly don't see how one can just assume it's the religion, not the specific people and environment. How can an educated person not make the distinction? Mathloom, one of the most reasonable posters in D&D, has tried to explain how the interpretation of Islam is being twisted by a few and every Muslim on this board is against these few. But you rather still believe what some website wrote instead of people who are replying back to you. Donny, the reason I get so active about these kinds of things is because I'm sincerely afraid. I'm sincerely afraid that something like what happened to Japanese Americans during WWII can happen to Muslims. United States Govt put them in interim camps due to the actions of one country. Perhaps if someone had the balls to stand up to that kind of stuff, it wouldn't have happened. There's people who actually are calling for it today. Now, can you blame me when I get defensive when you lump terrorists with Islam?
well unfortunately you are a victim of these extremist terrorists also. Yes security at the airport might take extra precautions if they see someone that fits the profile. That's life and unfortunately you will have to deal with it. If I was in charge of Security at the airport I would not be doing my job and keeping everyone safe if I didn't take extra precautions. Also I know the majority of Muslims are hardworking individuals who just want to have a normal life and raise a family. In fact my Grandma is Muslim. Anyways I have repeated it and Donny also said it. No one on here has lumped ALL MUSLIMS as TERRORISTS. NO ONE SAID THAT HERE. The fact is and you cant ignore the facts. The fact is there is actually a Huge following of Islamic Extremists out there who either preach violence or actually act on it. They kill and murder in the name of Allah, the Koran and Islam. No one else labeled them Muslim but themselves.
If you want to play the semantics game, then yeah, it would be Muslims vs. South Park. Islam(ists) vs. Southpark is an appropriate title. Some Islamists take issue with South Park. But know that saying "Islam vs. South Park" does not does not imply *all* Muslims. I think you're reading a little too far into that. Some people apparently seem to interpret South Park is being "versus" Islam, and vice versa, so I don't take much issue with the thread title. Sucks dude. Totally sucks you have to deal with that. Trust me, I wish you didn't. No one has presented any valid evidence as to the correlation between environment and action. The only constant in the equation is the promotion/justification of violence in religion and the amount of people within that religion that commit violent acts. Like I've said so many times before, there have been people who have grown up in far worse conditions being poor, uneducated, or oppressed, who have NOT become violent due to their religion (Tibetan monks, African Slaves)... so the "situation" thing doesn't hold water. What their religion tells them is proper to do is the only proven motivator. Sucks that some people's religion tells them to kill people. I wish religious moderates would be more interested in stopping these people or reforming their religion to exclude violence instead of just ignoring/denying/excusing it in the interest of their own self-preservation as a faith (in terms of legitimacy and popularity, etc). I get that. I really do. But I think you're missing the point that my fighting for the freedom of speech without fear of violent reprisal is actually very akin to the rights that keep you from ever going to an internment camp. I don't have an issue with you, I don't have an issue with religious freedom (religion is part of freedom, people have the right to that and I would never take it away from them, even though I adamantly encourage people to *not* be religious), what I have a problem with is violence and that which aids and abets it. Unfortunately for all of us, the major religious texts of our time inspire people to violence. Sucks, but it's true. You can argue that it's just a few bad eggs, don't throw out the baby with the bath water, etc etc, but in the end it will continue, needlessly and endlessly. Write me up a religion text that isn't open to violent interpretation and I'll be your biggest fan. In fact, I'll help you find a publisher.
I'm not being obtuse. Islam preaches that you should have respect wherever you are. As scary as this may sound to you if you have prejudiced views, in Islam there is one God, one land, one law and one race. Citizens of the world kind of thing. Muslims have to act the same everywhere. Now, I can see the argument that you have to show respect everywhere therefore in different places you respect different things. But what you respect has to be respect-worthy, no matter where you are. Not saying this guy is right, especially if he issued a death threat, but your statement seemed to be skewed to say that the dude is not in his country.
So does Christianity. Furthermore, it specifically commands adherents to preach the gospel to unbelievers and followers of false prophets and convert them to the one true religion of Christianity wherever they may be. [rquoter] "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, [/rquoter] [rquoter] He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. [/rquoter] [rquoter] Yet when I preach the gospel, I cannot boast, for I am compelled to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel! [/rquoter] If you're cool with that, maybe you can get Christians to revisit your concerns.
People kill themselves in the name of lots f things everyday. Would you rather people kill in the name of money or oil? Does it matter? Was there no or less murder before religion in your opinion? This is a silly statement IMO. You see here is the problem. You have a false thought that follows this line of thinking and I'm glad you put it out there for everyone to see: - There are 1 billion Muslims. - Let's say you interpret the text correctly. - Let's say you also elliminate the associated socio economic factors. - There will still be x number of people who kill in the name of Islam. - This number x would dissapear or drop significantly if they are not religious. and you call me disgusting? Let's see. You get your information from bigoted, racist and misleading websites. You have admitted that you don't care about the texts enough to read - you have given up before even trying. You are certain that the issue is the text. You claim that the solution is to denounce jihadists. How the F do you denounce jihadists and tell them their religion is bullcrap at the same time? That is idiotic at best, and is a failure waiting to happen. "I don't believe in evolution and you are stupid for believing it. I have never read the book." You know what I would do? I would eliminate as much misinterpretation and socio-economic factors as possible. I would bring democracy. I would educate. What on earth do you think you possess that no one else posseses? As long as there are people like you, people like me have to struggle more to motivate people to get educated in this region. As long as there are people like you, there will be someone saying "that dude just hates us and we have to do something about it". Your method is ineffective, your plan is useless and your prejudice against religion affects your judgement. If you were so certain that the texts are wrong, you would be doing everything in your power to educate people and make them read it from an educated perspective. Because if the text is wrong, and you are not significantly smarter than everyone else, then they will see what you apparently see. But no, you are like every other Islamic scholar. "Trust me, it's a load of crap. I've haphazardly read it. Just trust me, you don't need to get educated and make an objective decision on this." Doesn't that make WAY more sense than "axe the religion. it is eternal failure." What's funny is that it is against your OWN values. For each person to be free to make a decision and be extended the same rights. But you assume ofcourse that your statement on religion is a statement of fact. Who on earth does that?
I don't know if it says that. I can't judge from a few quotes. Could be out of context, could be true, I don't know. In any case, there are many similarities between Islam and Christianity. If you're implying that making someone convert may be a part of Islam, it is not. A quick google search will show you.
I said "some of you are firmly entrenched in the belief that Islam=terror/irrationality". You picked apart my argument thinking my "you" meant only those who'd posted on this thread and that "=" was the mathematic/logic definition... Please don't be that lawyer-poster which ATW was comparing Refman to (which Refman was NOT imo). When I typed my post, it was thinking that there were lurkers out there who did in fact *almost* believe that Islam as a religion is just terror/more irrational than other religions. I apologize if you think I intentionally prevaricated, I'm not one who "makes stuff up" often. Your last sentence makes feel like I pulled a Fox News which is why it stings more than you might've intended it to. After reading what you wrote above me and what my original comment said, that "Islam=terror", I'll change it to "Islam~terror, give or take some". Again, even though no one who posted said ALL Muslims are unreasonable, there are lurkers/people outside CF who do think that. Since I see so much of it online, I sometimes forget which forum/blog had attitudes like the above so when I respond, I'm responding to various posters from different sites. Do you mind my asking what your (DonnyMost) line of work is and what educational background you're coming from? I can't type enough of what I have to say due to time and the inconvenience of mobile browsers as well as the inability to see how sincere/interested and educated my audience is, and this makes me seem much less qualified to speak on this particular subject than I actually am when I write short and easy-to-challenge responses based on semantics etc. For myself, I just graduated from college and work for a think tank that talks about issues exactly like this. I'm coming from an economics, finance and sociology background along with concentrations in Islamic studies and philosophy.
There you go excusing/ignoring/pardoning violence again. YES IT MATTERS WHY PEOPLE ARE KILLING EACH OTHER (If you know why, you can take action to stop it! And some reasons are more necessary or preventable than others!). You seem to have this completely delusional belief that people didn't have holy doctrine to kill each other over, that they'd go FIND reasons to kill each other, as if it was some kind of destiny for them. That is so wrong I can't even believe I'm reading it. Stop excusing violent behavior as an inevitability. People kill each other for a reason, stop acting like it's something that we have no control over like the freaking rain or the sun setting. Remove holy doctrine which they interpret as violent directives and the religious violence would end, period. If they have another reason to kill each other (socio-economic), then we can take action to prevent/curtail it, but there's no reason to give them a reason to kill each other BEYOND that. What is your point? If people are interpreting the text *as you see it* then they wouldn't be killing each other. But guess what, they don't. Maybe you should try fixing that instead of being interested in *my* interpretation of Islam (I don't really give a crap about Islam as much as I do the people who chose to interpret it as a violent directive), maybe you should worry more about theirs instead. I googled a random website just to show how violence can be extrapolated from religious texts. There's a hundreds, if not thousands of websites I could have used. I personally didn't even read the website, I didn't "get my info" from there, because I have no real interest in studying any religious texts. However, all the proof I need is that there are people who *do* interpret them as violent directives. That, in and of itself, trumps any argument you may have with whatever website. The proof is in the pudding. Violent directives are being extrapolated from the major religious texts of our time, like I told Qazi, find/write me a religious doctrine which CANNOT be interpreted as giving violent directives and I'll be your biggest fan. Call it Islam 2.0, or Mathoomism Good question. How do we stop it? I'm not interested in seeing any religion spread or sustain, so I'm probably not the best person to defuse jihadists. You, however, are interested in the preservation and growth of Islam, so it would seem that the onus would fall on the moderate Muslims to stop Jihadists from besmirching their faith with their violent actions, no? Since the responsibility falls to you, what do you feel we can achieve this goal? Sweet, you answered my question instantly And awesome, this is something we agree on somewhat! I think education can be a force for peace. However, as we've seen, scientists, engineers, architects, doctors, etc have killed themselves in the name of religion... and in the process hurt thousands of people. As Harris said, "We live in a world where someone can be so well educated they can build a nuclear bomb and yet still believe that when they die they will receive 72 virgins in heaven". That is a dangerous, dangerous mix, and unfortunately a problem that education alone won't solve. Teaching people to be critical thinkers reduces their tendency to follow religious dogma, it's been proven, but it will never work for 100% of the population, as even 10-15% of the most elite scientists in the world still believe in a personal god. At the end of the day, the problem remains that we have major religious texts which remain capable of being interpreted as violent directives. That is going to be a problem until these religions die off. Huh? What are you talking about? I don't cause any problems for you. I hate violence. I will not tolerate it. I don't like religion, but it is my duty to tolerate it, so long as it doesn't open the window for violence. I don't know where you get that I have some overarching plan or method. And my prejudice is toward critical thinking, science, reason, evidence, investigation and non-violence, sorry that bothers you so much. No sir, that would be YOUR job as an advocate. I don't want people getting involved with religion in any way, shape or form. You keep coming back to *my perspective*, but my perspective/view is irrelevant. The view that matters is the one of the guy who kills somebody in the name of religion. Go talk to him, leave me out of it. You will never convince me that studying something that does not play by the rules of evidence and reason is a worthwhile endeavor. And you don't have to worry about me blowing anything up, so I'd say we're cool with me being completely against religion. Not really. I'd rather see people choose to stop being religious. I think we'd be better for it as a society. Um, no it doesn't. Study whatever you want. Believe in whatever you want. Interpret it however you want. But don't kill people, how does that go against my values? You really take issue with these religious facts? People take violent directives from religious texts; fact. People kill people over religion; fact. Hard to argue with that, but you sure do like to try.
