Cohen, So I guess you are trying to make a distinction between this and wars started for gaining land purposes? In that case, they are different, sure...however, I would also argue that people were in support of this type of American war in the past (Korea, Vietnam (smaller support). That still did not make these supporters violent, evil, etc. "Amercian targets in the region" would be military installments and embassies, I guess? These stand in place of the government, as it is unreachable and ridiculous for a Palastinian to even consider.
rimbaud (and shanna): Note also the extreme majority in the last question. They believe that all Israelis, everywhere, should be attacked. Of course, the question refered to Israelis, but they tend to have similar feelings about us as well. They make no distinction between military and civilian targets.
Stated by Jeff: One of the most significant problems we have in America is our unwillingness to learn the truth about things and instead blindly follow anything that resonates in our psyche for more than 10 seconds. Learning requires growth and sometimes looking at things that don't feel comfortable. As a wise man once said, "Education is designed to replace and empty mind with an open one." I truly feel that is a problem in our society today, that people recieve most/all their news without reading between the lines. Just as was stated in other threads : "News media wants to scare you into not watching tommorrow" The fact is the media can be manipulated. It has been done for a thousand years, and why do we feel we are above it? I truly feel there is a Anti-US Sentiment in the Middle East. I feel it is not because Arabs/Muslims have a disdain for freedom, money or liberal societies. It boils down to ONE SINGLE POINT. Palestinians are being forced to leave their homes and are living in an apartheid state in which they recieve no rights simply because of their race. THE US IS THE GREATEST SUPPORTER OF ISRAEL Giving Money, Arms and Political Support to Isreal is the ONLY SINGLE REASON THERE IS ANY ANIMOSITY TOWARDS THE US I just find it ignorant, when people think its a random hatred. We bombed the hell out of Iraq. Destroyed the economies of many nations there through embargos and helped military dictatorships overthrow democratically elected governments. We have our hands in everything and the majority of it is just to protect Isreal. Well you know what, I'm sick of it. Let the Arabs and Jews figure it out, why are we being dragged into their problems? The Jewish Lobby, Could it Be?? Let Israel be a democratic state then. Because it is not. When a Palestinian who lives in Isreal cannot vote, it is a fascist state that is only ruled by a ruling class and oppresses the Palestinians who are Christians and Muslims. There are many displaced Christains as well that are throwing rocks and are suicide bombers along with the Muslims in Palestine. I just think the US needs to focus on US Problems and not create all of this animosity in Arab/Muslim lands by its unwavering support of a small country with just a few million people.
...yet isn't it "uncomfortable" that possibly the hatred towards the US in the Middle East is not solely relegated to American support of Israel? or that sympathies towards anti-American groups are more widespread than is represented in the media?
Originally posted by rimbaud Cohen, So I guess you are trying to make a distinction between this and wars started for gaining land purposes? ... Not really. In WWII we went to war because one of our cities was attacked. We didn't just wage war against the Japanese or German governments. These were wars between nations. We attacked each other's cities. In Afghanistan, we specifically avoid killing civilians and damaging their infrastructure. We target their un-recognized government. This seems like a pretty solid distinction, particularly for the Afghanis.
UN confirmed that 4 NGO workers who cleared up mines were killed. they have anywhere from 6-10 million land mines in afghanistan. 20-30 people die everyday from them. yes everyone really helped them in the past 10 years right? THERE IS NO INFRASTRUCTURE. and oh yeah i again ask: if the taliban do collapse who replaces them? that is one question no one is answering. and if you really do think the northern alliance should get help then again they won't do anything for the people...except grow more opium and increase rape crimes..oh maybe mrspur would like to join them?
Apparently there is some history of the group of tribal leaders acting as a governing body, but as you would be quick to point out, boy, it is not for the US to decide Afghanistan's government. Are you actually arguing that the Taliban is the BEST government available for Afghanistan? You might not be so defensive of them if you were 'girl'.
oh even better we destroy the current crappy government and leave them with complete anarchy? there was a great muslim scholar who once said "80 years of corrupt government are better then 1 day of anarchy" honestly i have no idea what should be done. i thank god im not the president of any country involved. however i don't see a viable alternative right now no. all the proposals i've seen seem faulty to me. that christian 'militia' not terrorists huh? oh yeah sharon was directing them. great israeli non bias and love for freedom again right? and oh yeah kuwait was part of iraq until the saud family kicked out the kuwaiti royal family out of saudi arabia. the problem is not that good nice america was protecting those innocent kuwaitis. the problem is american policy of me me me. if you really want equality in the world then dammit make kuwait have a democracy. of course not that might result in anti-west governments and oil is worth more to us then other peoples independence and freedom.
Cohen, I am not striving for an isolationist agenda, I am just striving for an agenda that does not constantly alienate a large group of people in favor of a very small group. Can everyone agree that a state that: Allows voting based on race Will not allow one to get jobs because of race People of a Certain Race have little to no human rights People only of a certain race must carry papers with them If you are of a race you can be thrown out of your home to build a house for some one else Wow, ironically it sounds like South Africa during Apartheid And muslims from everywhere see Israel as an oppressive, apartheid state. That is where the anti-US sentiment stems from. I love this country and I feel its unwavering support of Israel is creating anti-US sentiment ALL OVER THE WORLD. I mean for god's sake, the US got thrown out of the UN Human Rights Council and did not attend a National Racism Conference only Because of ISRAEL. This shows its not just Arab nations that are starting to have backlash against the US, but many nations all over the world. Why are we displacing American Interests for Israeli interests?? This just baffles me.
Originally posted by boy oh even better we destroy the current crappy government and leave them with complete anarchy? there was a great muslim scholar who once said "80 years of corrupt government are better then 1 day of anarchy" honestly i have no idea what should be done. i thank god im not the president of any country involved. however i don't see a viable alternative right now no. all the proposals i've seen seem faulty to me. You miss the irony. You b**** about us sticking our noses in other people's busniess, yet you want us to nation-build? I will excuse your US-centric preconception that we are the only country that can establish a government in another country, and offer that the UN amd OIC should probably handle this. that christian 'militia' not terrorists huh? Of course they were; they were just known as the Christian Militia, NO? Why should I have to append 'terrorist'? oh yeah sharon was directing them. great israeli non bias and love for freedom again right? I certainly do not defend all actions of Israel or Israelis, as I am certain you would not like to defend all actions of Palestinians. and oh yeah kuwait was part of iraq until the saud family kicked out the kuwaiti royal family out of saudi arabia. From who's history book do you get Kuwait was a part of Iraq? Are we going back 300 years, when there was a 'country' that included parts of Armenia, Turkey, Iraq and Kuwait? Or are you referring to territories under British protection? Reagrdless, its sounds to me like Kuwait has been a self-governing entity for over 200 years. the problem is not that good nice america was protecting those innocent kuwaitis. the problem is american policy of me me me. Oh, and Somalia and Bosnia were ME ME ME. Please tell me how they helped my ass. if you really want equality in the world then dammit make kuwait have a democracy. of course not that might result in anti-west governments and oil is worth more to us then other peoples independence and freedom. 'MAKE' Kuwait have a democracy?? Again, with your two-faced approach to foreign policy. Don't butt-in to other country's busniess unless 'boy' says its OK to.
you butt in everywhere or you butt in nowhere you let all crappy governments exist or you let no crappy governments exist unless you do that you'r gonna be precieved as bias. now granted sometimes there are rights that you HAVE to butt in however then dont' play the humanitarian and 'freedom vs terrorism' cards. this wasn't an attack on freedom or democracy. thats pure rhetorical bs.
F.D. Khan, The quantity of people who approve or disapprove of our policies really does not impact it. It is what Americans feel is right, and for whatever reasons, at least some polls show that Americans sympathize more with the plight of the Israelis than the plight of the Palestinians. That doesn't mean they don't feel for the Palestinians also, but if you compare, thats what you get. I have read some on the history and find it difficult to make heads-or-tails of the situation. Did Jews have a right to a country there? Who started the massacres of civilians during the early struggles? Would Palestinians have been displaced if Arabs had not attacked? On and on and on. Whose history do you want to read? Both sides are wrong and both sides are right. It comes down to this, Israel will continue to exist. Palestine must be granted statehood. These are inevitables. I wish it were easy to say that both sides should just recognize this and get on with the particulars, but the hate appears to run too deep. Only 2 strong leaders and a strong intermediary can have a chance at resolving this mess (when will THAT ever happen?). And of course these leaders would be targets for the radicals from both sides. Getting back to your main question, again, there are other, non-Israeli reasons for our presence in the region. For example, we are not in Saudi Arabia for Israel.
Originally posted by boy you butt in everywhere or you butt in nowhere Nonsense. We cannot assist in the Balkans because we won't nation-build elsewhere? you let all crappy governments exist or you let no crappy governments exist unless you do that you'r gonna be precieved as bias. Again, who's 'letting' who do what? now granted sometimes there are rights that you HAVE to butt in however then dont' play the humanitarian and 'freedom vs terrorism' cards. Why not? I believe its rather obvious that terrorism is a threat to freedom. this wasn't an attack on freedom or democracy. thats pure rhetorical bs. Democracy, maybe. Freedom, they certainly attacked ours.
The most noted polls from Palestinian sources are: <A HREF="http://www.jmcc.org/index.html">Jerusalem Media and Communciation Centre</A> A recent poll from that site: <A HREF="http://www.jmcc.org/publicpoll/results/2001/no42.htm">JMCC Public Opinion Poll No. 42</A> The other noted source is at: <A HREF="http://www.birzeit.edu/">BirZeit University</A> The index of polling results is at: <A HREF="http://home.birzeit.edu/dsp/">Development Studies Programme</A> It mentions a new poll due shortly <i>[coming soon] October 11, 2001: The Intifada, and America’s Relations with the Arab World.</i> The detailed poll concerning Palestinian opinions in November 2000 is here: <A HREF="http://home.birzeit.edu/dsp/surv2/index.html">The Palestinian Intifada and the Peace Process</A> There are various levels of detail that can then be selected from that page. Mango
Well, this one is interesting (from Mango's polls): the last question in the JMCC No. 42 poll asking Palestinians what groups they trust - Total West Bank Gaza Strip n= 1198 n=758 n=440 Fateh 29.2 24.9 36.6 Hamas 20.7 18.7 24.1 Islamic Jihad 5.7 5.3 6.4 PFLP 4.3 3.8 5.0 DFLP 1.1 1.1 1.1 Other Islamic Faction 1.7 0.9 0.2 Other Factions 2.3 3.8 3.0 Don't trust anyone 22.7 26.5 16.1 No answer 12.3 15.0 7.5 Add it up and 65% of them trust known terrorist groups, 69% if you count the "Other Islamic Faction/Other Factions"... Gee, I'm shocked.
Rimbaud etc. One of my favorite what it scenarios. We had punished the Nazis by taking part of say Bavaria and made it a Jewish homeland for European and other Jews. It certainly would have been justified and wouldn't have sort of rewarded the Nazis/Germans for the "final soloution". The Palestinians didn't deserve to be in effect punished for the Nazis' crimes. However, as we all know the Germans are at least as fanatical and warlike as anyone else, so it could have led to great blowback. Oh well.
Personally, I think we should have created the State of Israel in West Texas, where no one's using the land. Or Utah, or Nevada, someplace like that. But no, we had to pick the second most dangerous place on the planet for Jews at the time - the Jews having just come from the most dangerous place, which was no longer very dangerous... The Brits never should have listened to the Zionists. They didn't think it through too well.
<B>rimbaud (and shanna): Note also the extreme majority in the last question. They believe that all Israelis, everywhere, should be attacked. Of course, the question refered to Israelis, but they tend to have similar feelings about us as well. They make no distinction between military and civilian targets.</B> I disagree with the inference that they tend to have similar feelings towards us. A majority of Palestinians hate Israelis -- that makes sense, because they are being oppressed there (or so I assume). They will naturally hate the people and government actively doing so -- regardless of whose fault it is. Both sides hate each other there. Those same feelings don't necessarily translate to the U.S, though. While we are allied with Israel, we are not them, and we are not the ones actively responding to their terrorists or oppressing them or settling their lands or whatever other issues they have with Israel. For example, we have serious issues with the Taliban. Pakistan is more-or-less allied with them, but we still have a working (and temporarily allied) relationship with them. For whatever reason, feelings don't always extend to allies of enemies.
You're right that feelings don't always extend to allies, but in this case I am fairly sure that they do. Let me ask you this: Why weren't those planes crashed into a skyscraper in Tel-Aviv if they only hate the Jews? Why New York and the Pentagon? Yeah, it was just a few crazy extremists... Anyway, that's irrelevant. Based on that poll, you cannot deny the majority of them dislike us intensely. The large majority believes that we should be attacked, the poll clearly shows that. I have to conclude that since we have never threatened them or attacked them in any way, that they hate us - since they would like to see us die. For them it is not a matter of defense; we will not let them kill all of the Jews, and they hate us for it. Do you think that flag burning is some form of exotic Arabic exercise regime? Heads outta the holes, people...
