glynch, Read Mango's links in this thread. They are to polls done on Palestinian attitudes, and they clearly illustrate what the majority of that population really thinks. Your beloved Palestinians hate your guts. Are you a member of the ACP? Are you in any other way affiliated with the Communist movement? Just curious.
And Manny, MrSpur is presenting evidence. He's not running around screaming "Kill the Ragheads!" or anything like that. What have you offered? No one here thinks that all Arabs are bad, or that all Muslims are bad. But you're deluding yourself if you think there's not a large chunk of the Arabic muslim population that would be very pleased to see mushroom clouds over every American city.
To be fair, treeman, I have used the terms, at one point (though not anymore) "camel jockey" and "goat herder" a week or so after the attacks. These were directed towards the Taliban and the al-Qaeda terrorist network. That is why Manny is huffing and puffing right now.
That isn't exactly the whole story either, Mr Spur... It wasn't like you said them casually, without thinking first... You actually spent a considerable amount of time defending the questionable labels, and suggested that anyone who disagreed with you must be a part of the Taliban. What were you smoking back then? Is it really that black and white-- agree with Mr Spur or join the Taliban? I know I got into it too a bit, deriding your mullet and camaro (I know you don't really have either...), but you seem to go places that offend not just a few people. When it brings a moderator in to tell you that you're out of line, that should tell you something.
Treeman, I would rather not get into this. I know that I already have, but it is Spur's line of thinking that I find disturbing. It's like he's some propaganda machine that just churns things out left and right. Are there people who hate us because we are American? Damn right there are, but what is the whole point of getting people riled up about it? That is exactly what Spur is doing. People in the Middle East are jealous of us and they hate us because of our support to Israel. I support Bush in every decision he makes. If we get rid of the main terrorists, i.e. cut off the heads, then maybe, just maybe, not so many people become brainwashed into hating us. I know how you stand on this issue, but do you see my point? I think that if you and Spur posted about the same thing..your post would not be as controversial. Also, some of Spur's previous threads that were closed doesn't help. I admit that maybe I should have taken the time to read some of his stuff more carefully, but regardless of what he thinks, I don't have the time to read all these articles and distinguish what his true motives are in posting them.
Fun scenario for everyone to play at home: Let us suppose that the UN suddenly becomes very powerful and can impose its will over the US. Then, the decision is made that many Eastern European (formerly of the USSR) need a new home. The perfect place is found in the deep south (Tennessee, Alabama, etc). So, a new nation is made and current residents are moved around a bit. What would Americans in this region and in the rest of the country think of the UN? Note: This is terribly simplistic, I know...it also is not support for Palestinian violence, etc. It is merely an ilustration that populations can dislike countries, policies, etc...and not be bad. Right now, Americans want war with Afghanastan, bin Laden killed, and probably still want Iraq blown up a little. Does this make all of them bad or "violence loving?" Fact: Our government has done some bad things in the region for many years, including deposing popularly elected officials (see Mohammed Mossadegh of Iran, circa 1951 due to oil reasons). Fact: The US has done some good things in the region, although I must admit these seem much more limited and sparse, unfortunately. On another note, the article mentions all the great things Islam has done for history, and how this has declined (in the mid east) recently, leaving poverty, etc. Is Islam to blame for this, or is the USSR invasion, the external changing of borders, causing conflict, oil power plays, and Cold War maneuvering all partly responsible? The fact that the author is a prof in Israel says nothing initially of bias. However, when it is immediately evident that he is passing the same labels that the Israeli government (one which has committed its own acts of terrorism) uses, then we must be more skeptical. Netenyahu (sp?) has been on just about every news network stating that just about every Islamic governemtn in the region needs to be taken out because they are all terrorists...isn't that a little extreme?
I just want the truth. What we know: 5,000 dead+ in US Perpetrators apparently terrorists who have claimed a 'Holy War' on the US. US is currently engaged in military action against the terrorists and the 'government' that has aided them. Terrorist network is broad and spread throughout a number of nations. Terrorist network has previously attacked US interests within the last decade. Terrorists calling for others to join their 'Holy War' on the US.
Manny, I think MrSpur is just frustrated that no one else seems to want to admit the possibility that there are not just a few people in the ME that hate us, but possibly a large majority. I don't know if it is the large majority, but a considerable amount of evidence seems to point that way. Again, read Mango's links for a quick and dirty taste... I to am frustrated by the PC line that only a handful of extremist Arabic muslims hate us. It is clearly more than a handful. While I understand that for political reasons our leaders must repeat this mantra to the cameras, our people should know better.
rimbaud: Just two minor corrections - we don't want war with Afghanistan, we want to eliminate the Taliban (half of whom are not even Afghans), and we don't want to destroy Iraq (we want Saddam and his party gone). Saying that we want war against Afghanistan and we want to destroy Iraq implies that we want to destroy those populations - exactly the line that Osama is preaching. The distinctions are important.
I agree, and I do not know why the damn news keeps saying that we are attacking Afghanistan, not the Taliban.
Tree, I understand that and that was what I meant...however, we are at war with Afghanastan, as the Taliban rules over the country. Generally the purpose of any war is to remove or weaken the particular government. I, therefore, do not understand the need for this clarification. We are discussing the attitudes of the people of Palestine, who would not be opposed to military actions against the US. It is the same, they do not want to kill american citizens, they want to change the policy in the region. Bin Laden has nothing to do with this particular scenario...he is a different animal.
Although I give credit to MrSpur for toning it down quite a bit, why don't you read some of his other posts in other threads. THis is a nice one: http://bbs.clutchcity.net/php3/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22282
<B>Read Mango's links in this thread. They are to polls done on Palestinian attitudes, and they clearly illustrate what the majority of that population really thinks. Your beloved Palestinians hate your guts. </B> Where did you get this from?? I read those questions, and none had any relation to Palestinians attitudes of hatred towards the US. Do they trust us to be fair? Hell no, and why should they, since we state Israel is our biggest ally. Do they think the peace process is working? No Do they prefer the UN over the US? Hell yes I don't see ANYTHING in those polls that says or infers that they hate us though. Can you show me one of the questions you're referring to?
Many thanks on those, Mango (although I think that the second set were not statistically significant). I hope that a strong leader could bring the Palestinian population around (once the open issues are resolved, of course). It was actually comforting to see that even 30% still think that they could coexist peacefully with Israel, considereing current events.
I think the distinction is important. If another country attacked one of our cities, their cities would be attacked. Not just their government (e.g. WWII). ...per the polls? We should add that it was against 'American targets in the region'.
