i am disdainful of western foreign policy yes. yet of the west? of course not. i think western policy is more 'me' instead of the accurate role it should have in truly leading the world. instead of using everyone else we should help everyone else come to our level. i don't think that would diminish our status yet truly make us better and more respected. if I make myself visible to politians they'll listen to me. so me just complaining without calling up congressman does no one any good. however i do think its wrong and hopefully i can make it more fair. of course this process isn't one that would happen quickly. just like every other minority group muslims will have to do the same. however we've already wasted a few decades but hopefully we can bring a nice view to the table. why would i hate the place i grew up in and am given a chance to argue with you on here without being threatened by you? i'm all for freedom and democratic values of the west yet i just hope they can be instituted in the 'third world' as well. i think american policy in latin america has been rather sad as well. we all know henry k. wasn't a choir boy.
boy, Is there a country in the world that comes close to your ideal? As far as the West and the US leading the rest of the world, that carries with it the implicit understanding that the rest of the world wants to follow that lead. Mango
Jeff, Of course there are always two sides to any story when any conflict is involved. That does not make both sides justified, and the side that lies or ignores truth is usually the one whose base of justification is thinner... What exactly is the difference between propaganda and any opinionated information? Really? Isn't any information given in order to prove a point, or any persuasive opinion (informative or not) at all propaganda in that sense? I tend to limit my own definition of propaganda to outright lies and purposeful omissions of important information. Gotta draw the line somewhere... Incidentally, I didn't just suddenly decide that much of islam hates us. I've suspected it for years, I'm just finally coming to grips with accepting it. It does not make me happy. boy, If the Third World wants democracy, it's theirs. If you look at our record around the globe, I think you'll find (with a few setbacks) that we have for the most part supported democratic movements all over the world (including South and Central America). But if that democratic regime is hostile to the US, then we will deal with it the same as we would a hostile dictatorship. We'd be idiots not to. If someone wants to attack you, it doesn't matter if they're a democrat or a dictatorl, you defend yourself. In addition, we put our national interests above our global commitments. Again, we'd be fools not to. Last time I checked, no world bodies gave us either the responsibility or the authority to be the "world's leader". We are willing to lead in some situations (like the Cold War, like now), but other nations must be willing to follow in order for us to take that role. If Arabic muslim populations dislike us and refuse to cooperate, then how are we to take a leadership role in helping them to develop? We are not going to force democratic political systems or market economies upon anyone.
Jeff, I don't understand why people keep mentioning Christian and Nzis together. Nazis were godless; they worshipped their arian myths. shanna, I don't believe in this prof's lack of bias, but do you mean to imply that no other countries could trust the work our professors? Ottomaton, Informative references, thanks. As far as the article is concerned, the bias is too potent to trust anything about it. I want someone to show me one statistic, somewhere, that the MAJORITY of Palestinians want Israel gone. I know that a dangerous number of them do, but I have never seen the percentages. Has anyone else?
Here are polls on some issues: <A HREF="http://aish.com/Israel/articles/Palestinian_Public_Opinion_Poll.asp">Some Responses</A> <A HREF="http://www.miftah.org/Other/polls.html">Another sets of responses</A> <A HREF="http://www.pollingreport.com/israel.htm">Polls of Americans on similar issues</A> Mango
Farrakhan's latest speech: http://www.noi.org/press-events/transcript_us.attacked09-16-2001.htm There are many things I take issue with with Farrakhan, but I believe he has a lot of good in him also. Ottoman is right. The Nation of Islam has a lot to do with Islam. Oh, and Malcom X separated from the NOI to form his own thing. Both organizations do more good then bad. Quanell X...well I think he's messed up, but that's for another time.
Thanks for the links, Mango. Why did the results of those polls not shock me? Everyone, read those links. It's not proof, but it's damn good evidence.
Uhm... I think you're kind of missing the point of those articles. While I agree that NOI does quite a few good things, the point of what I posted is: NOI is to Islam as The Mormon Church is to Christianity In both instances, the first could be considered a subset of the latter, but both have doctrinal teachings which are very clearly not accepted by the larger group.
I think some of y'all are being a little hard on MrSpur. Had he written the article himself, then I could see the reaction. He just let us read an article written by an Israeli professor. It's an article that is in alignment with his own views, but who wouldn't want to post an article written by a professor that agrees with you?
Though specious, your arguement is confuted by the fact that the author of the article is not what concerns most here. Rather, it is the type of convoluted thinking that would lead to such an article that concerns us. Whether Mr. Spur wrote it or not, by reprinting it he proves he subscribes to the same jingoistic worldview that leads one to hate everyone that is different.
How do you all know that Dr. Plaut is NOT from Lincoln, Nebraska? Rejecting him out of hand because he teaches at a University in Israel is the anti-thesis of an open mind. You impose your bias by assuming his. What say all of you critics about the stats provided by the ever-resourceful Mango?! Where Plaut writes "the vast majority of Muslims," I would conjecture that he is talking about Muslims of the Middle East and not those of the American Muslim movement. How could you pretend to challenge his theses (perhaps statistically buttressed) unless you have lived there amidst the tensions? If you can disprove his assertions, that is one thing; but to denounce them because they are unseemly or make you uncomfortable is entirely another of questionable value.
Despite the professor's hateful biased article, I still believe that the majortiy of Israelis are decent humane people who are capable of peace, letting the Palestinians have a truly independent homeland and according civil rights to non Jews living in Israel I guess it is my civic religion.
Boy said: i am disdainful of western foreign policy yes. yet of the west? of course not. i think western policy is more 'me' instead of the accurate role it should have in truly leading the world. instead of using everyone else we should help everyone else come to our level. i don't think that would diminish our status yet truly make us better and more respected. Well said. Keep up the good work. I agree 100%. I think the problem is that for many in the US there is a scarcity mentality--they think that if people in the ME or elsewhere have more, they will have less. This is strange since they profess often times to think western technology can accomplish anything. I think that perhaps this is rooted in the basic insecurity of life in the US vs say that of western Europe. You feel you need to save massive amounts of money for your old age, health care and children's education. The markets go up; they go down. You could be laid off with out unemployment insurance; workers comp is a joke etc. Boy, what do you think?
Considering that the US has been attacked by terrorists calling for a "Holy War" I think it only fitting that the role of faith in this is discussed. Granted, the author of this article may not be an 'unbiased' source, but, Jeff, I hardly think that The Atlantic Monthly is a bad source. You call this "propaganda", but what have you offered on the subject? Why can Islam not be looked at critically? What is wrong with seeking understanding of fundamentalism and extremism and its role within Islam? I suppose articles are "propaganda" if they do not support your point of view.
I really don't have the time to get into a pointless, name-calling argument with a 10 year-old twit who is the biggest racist that I have ever seen! Damn, Spur, why don't you go to freaking church sometime and get all this racist hate out of you, huh? BTW - My job is a little tougher than flipping burgers at McDonald's or pumping gas or mowing lawns or any other assorted odd jobs that racist, high-school dropout punk rednecks like you might have. Also, I like your "originality"...but then again I'm not surprised. You really don't have a clue about life, do you?
I only want the truth. I've referred to the Islamic faith in this forum as a 'peaceful' faith as that is what I have observed from those believers whom I have known. BUT...apparently not all believers are peaceful. Sure, not all Christians are peaceful. As for 'pitiful' and 'hateful'...well, I haven't lost sleep over that. I'll leave it up to the PC brigade to punish me.
