Islam - an Ideology clash

I think these celebrities in general practice a sort of 'supplementary' Islam and not the full genuine article. Then you have to factor in that maybe the Middle East Muslim world does not fully accept or not take these people seriously. They have no pull or substance when it is all said and done.

 

While in general I agree, and most Muslims practice a tamer form of Islam -- like Jews or Christians who follow more moderate teachings and understandings of Christianity or Judaism.

However, the Qur'an in Islam is not treated like the Bible in Christianity. To Muslims the Qur'an is the direct message given to Muhammad through Gabriel. It's not paraphrased. It's exactly as God intended it to be written. That's why it's still spoken in Arabic. It loses it's full meaning when translated.

It's very easy to go through the Qur'an and find passages that instruct followers to harm those who don't accept the message.

There are also numerous passages that are easy to find that dictate Jews and Christians are to be treated fairly and as "People of the Book."

Whereas in Christianity, there are no verses in the New Testament calling for violence.

There are many many many Muslims who haven't a clue what the Qur'an even says. They know certain Surahs, they can recite them, they might know the meaning the Imam tells them, but not all Muslims read and write Arabic nor do they all read Fusha (formal Arabic).

There is a legitimacy to the fears of Islam. Islam has been used for hundreds and hundreds of years as an imperial tool of sorts. But it's not people taking things completely out of context. It's just the confusing nature of Islam. One that advocates peace in one instance and violence in another.

Which is why stressing RADICAL or EXTREMIST Islam is important. Rudy Guiliani made this point last night. It's RADICAL Islam that we should fear.

And I'm so so glad he made the point of stressing they're killing FAR more Muslims (Shiites and others) than Westerners.

 

The problem here is that Guiliani's 'pc statement' doesn't reflect his and Trump's policy desires.

A desire to ban ALL Muslim immigration or a desire to infringe on all Muslim American rights through illegal search and seizure(all mosques ought to be monitored) doesn't sound like someone who is stressing the distinction between hardline Islamists and moderate Muslims.

 

Trump has clarified his "Muslim ban" and it wouldn't be on all Muslim immigration. Also, I don't know what Trump's policy desires are because I don't believe a damn thing he says. Literally nothing he says I trust. Someone tried to tell me they know for sure who he would support for SCOTUS and not a clue who Hillary would so Trump is worth the risk...um no, he's not, because he could flip on the list like he's flipped on every issue he's spoken public about in the last 20 years.

Nonetheless, that doesn't change that Guliani's comments were very important and I'm glad he stressed them -- even if you don't believe that's how he truly feels or that his policy objectives would take those beliefs into consideration. I felt it was important to say and especially important to say to hardcore Republicans (conventioners).

 

For all our differences and arguments, this is spot friggin' on. It's what I was trying to stress, but much more coherent and to the point.

It's not to say Islam and the West CAN'T coexist or that it's necessarily a "worse" religion. It's just different and can't be entirely explained and understood in the terms of Christianity.

 

Not to be disrespectful, but it appears you don't understand the Quran if you think it can be "rewritten." It's the literal word of God as dictated to Muhammad through the Angel Gabriel. It can't be rewritten unless God sends another message.

 

All religions are a subset of 'ideology'. Every religion is a type of 'ideology'.

 

So are you saying that the key is to encourage trade and economic prosperity in these countries?

C'mon man - now you are making a gross generalization.

Where does that fear take people? What is the solution then?

 

The irony under Islam ...those non muslim who received little or no knowledge or the typical distorted deformed image of Islam are excused from any responsibility

 

Did Muhammad desire a government based on religious law? If he did, he already is directly incompatible with Western secular republics.

 

How about him saying " you are more knowledgable of your matters " ,as him saying use the rational tools to manage your business

How about him complementing "Alhabashi" who was once a ruler of Africa. By saying " he rule a land of justice" when both had different faith...


How about complementing People of the bible by saying : some of them fear God the most and rationally well natured

How about Quran Saying: even when you judge the one you hate, apply justice

How about...finding other sources which I admit of finding difficult to be found .its hard to google, more distorted sources than accurate one , which i previously thoughts it's easily there

 

Islam is to belief in One God and his Prophets and it's hardly get more political than that..and when it's there ,it's in forms of self defence not aggression

"Don't be the aggressor God hates Aggressors "


the most prohibited things in Islam helps secular governments

-don't: kill,steal,cheat ,harm others,self harming ,lie,cheat ,forget the poor or those in needs of help ,or judge people as God and acting so etc all moral shared values which sadly many Muslims have done the opposite

What we see today is the opposite of more shaky political interpretation twisted targeting the least informed and those who are the least knowledgable by playing on emotions to full fill some agenda and less emphasize on the more vital chain of rules

Don't underestimate the power of idiots ,easily manipulated and they run with full steam

 

This might trick a stoned Muslim, but not many would even give this a thought. I'd imagine the rate of Muslims abandoning their faith is probably less than that of other religions. Primarily because most Muslims reside in Muslim countries and surrounded by the culture.

You can't reform or rewrite a religion by trying to convince them their initial premise -- that the Qur'an is literally the word of God with absolutely ZERO human error -- is false. Though, being non or anti-religious, I wouldn't expect that to be your true goal.

Where does complacency and turning a blind eye take us? 9/11. But you're right, fear doesn't solve this or make us any safer (though it can lead to actions that make us safer/it can also lead to actions that make us less safe).

What's the solution?

The solution to radical Islam in general or our (American) safety in particular?

 

I would say there are vast differences between the two practiced today and hopefully it won't take 50 years for them to reconsider these secular ideas that Arab states attempted in the 50's before the fundies took over.

My cynical mind tells me it will take much longer as it's easy to tear down and rule with an iron fist rather than to build up and foster a culture of civic duty and responsibility by following Islam on the abstract rather than the literal.

Or maybe a state like Iran will surprise us and gradually become that ideal state with a younger generation wanting and deserving better.

The problem is that Islamist terrorists label the American Muslims you mentioned as apostates and don't even blink an eye if they're harmed in some way or fashion.

My bleeding heart tells me that there are endemic problems to Islam practiced around the world that can NOT be ignored, some I concede to their current state as opposed to how they were a dominant power a hundred years ago and beyond. To me, that is women's rights and the religious freedom to practice and choose.

If I can't pussyfoot around the black and white and have to label "Islam toxic" in order to support the rights of women and religious freedom for all, I would choose the latter and support steps to prevent the subjugation of it even if it infringed on their religious rights and makes me a hypocrite (...just not a violent hypocrite).

That answer is likely worse on the meta level.

 

aside from celebrities , normal non-muslim from various background becomes Muslims which it surprise me too, and they are usually much better in doing it...they follow a belief rather than a shallow cultural practices born with

 

I find Muslim converts the most anal and extreme about their new found religion.

 

Some yes. reminds me of an Arab Freind who married a cool American women and she started to become a muslim, then she begin asking him to stop drinking and do this and follow this...it end up with a divorce