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Islam - an Ideology clash

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by DaDakota, Jul 18, 2016.

  1. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!
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    Mosab Hassan Yousef gives a great talk about Islam and it's ideology and whether Islam itself is a problem - worth watching.

    <iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/fv_o2Lmo5xw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

    A good watch, from a guy whose father is a Hamas leader.

    He makes some excellent points about the ideology and it's inherent flaws and the dangers to civilized society.

    DD
     
    #1 DaDakota, Jul 18, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2016
  2. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!
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    A great watch by an educated man and not a single comment......sad.

    DD
     
  3. shastarocket

    shastarocket Contributing Member

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    I'm sure you know that his background makes him quite biased
     
  4. Exiled

    Exiled Member

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    He is in a tough spot, neither Palestinian or Israeli quite trust him but both agree he is a good business man
     
  5. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    I don't understand how people take terrorists as the proof that Islam as an ideology is incompatible with modern civilization when there are so many Muslims trying to reform their religion to be one of only peace and instead of supporting them we call them delusional and side with the extremists on what Islam is.

    Ideologies and religions are not fixed in their meanings and interpretations - religions are living forms that can be adapted - the differences in Catholicism and Protestantism is proof of that.

    When people start making Islam the enemy instead of extremists, you are fighting against those moderates and progressives who see a different Islam than the extremists, and you empower the extremists.

    This is the purpose of terrorism. It is to foster fear from the west of Islam and allows the terrorists to control the dialogue of what Islam is.
     
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  6. AroundTheWorld

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    It's not only terrorists.

    - honor killings (which are only the tip of the iceberg of subjugation of women)
    - burkhas
    - subjugation of women
    - widespread belief in death penalty for apostasy
    - no belief in freedom of speech/satire/humor
    - discrimination of homosexuals

    etc. etc.

    Don't act like Muslim attitudes as a whole are fine and dandy and it's just a few crazy terrorists. It's a sliding scale, and connected tissue.
     
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  7. Invisible Fan

    Invisible Fan Contributing Member

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    I agree. I have some empathy for moderates who want to be morally good but not extreme in a western context, but the similarities between shifting to secular Christianity with Islam is on a sliding scale in logarithmic terms. I'd say from 3 to 7.

    That's likely where the perceptual disconnect between trying and not trying enough
     
  8. ipaman

    ipaman Contributing Member

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    Islam is a middle/dark ages religion in the modern 21st century. Islam has to be modernized.

    From what my muslim friends have told me, there are 5 pillars of Islam and 6 pillars of faith that can't be changed. However, the rest is fair game and can be negotiated on and modernized.

    Opponents will say that non-muslims should not define what is "modern" or dictate and define islam to real muslims. However, we share the same world and the world has decided what is acceptable so in essence the world as a whole can dictate.

    I don't know the answer to this but i refer to the many great muslims who do. Depose, squash, get rid of whatever is preventing islam from completely modernizing across the world and let's all live on together happily ever after.
     
  9. Cohete Rojo

    Cohete Rojo Contributing Member

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    That was absolutely boring. Did not finish.

    Sorry.
     
  10. Liberon

    Liberon Rookie

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    This guy came from a part of the Islamic Extremist World that was very dark. He probably doesn't know of the other 'Secularized' Islamic world where they allow they children to grow up to be comedians/entertainers. Any of the three religions based from this region have been reinterpreted for the worst. And if you look at history there's plenty of evidence of that.

     
  11. Liberon

    Liberon Rookie

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    What kind of Islam are some these black celebrities converting to? My favorite comedian of all time, Dave Chappelle produces and participates in a wide variety of entertainment venues that would not fit within the Islamic world of any sort. Then there are guys like Shaq, Mike Tyson, etc that clearly joke and say things that wouldn't be within Muslim regulations as well.

     
  12. DaDakota

    DaDakota If you want to know, just ask!
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    That is precisely the issue, too many people going "Well I don't do it, but it is ok under our philosophy"

    Until Islam polices itself better, and I am not sure it can because there is no "New Testament" to be found - it will continue to inspire bad things for the civilized world.

    It is a Bully pulpit, that has no room for change. And it needs room to change.

    DD
     
  13. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    Love it. Guilt by association!
     
  14. ipaman

    ipaman Contributing Member

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    those are the folks i'm talking about. they need to ask the question, what is preventing the entire islam world from modernizing? if they know or find the answer they (as a community) can get rid of what is preventing across the board modernization. these moderate muslims have tons of power, it's time they start using it.
     
  15. Honey Bear

    Honey Bear Contributing Member

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    Just as pathetic are the moderates who use the fear mongering they were raised with to strike fear in the hearts of westerners who intend to discuss this.

    It is NOT Islamophobia.

    If a model of a car has a defect, all the cars are recalled.

    If a specific breed of animal is prone to a certain disease, all animals are checked for that genome.

    The daily events speak for themselves.

    It is why civilizations outside the arab world have evolved over the past millenia - open forums based on empirical evidence. Moderates know this but slyly deflect the issue . . . the truth and Islam do not go together.

    The Islam-is-fine-as-it-is supporters are either those too brainwashed to know better, or the ignorant who just want to be liked and have never been outside their bubble.
     
  16. Sweet Lou 4 2

    Sweet Lou 4 2 Contributing Member
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    Yeah has anyone done an analysis of how Islam compares in brutality to the historical arc of other religions?

    And what is the exact spectrum?

    People like to use this Pew Polls as saying 'Hey look at all these Muslims with backwards views" without asking why is it so high in some countries and so low in others. Why is it in the U.S. that so many Muslims (the vast vast majority) don't wear Burkas and want to kill everyone as well as subjugate women?

    Doesn't that show that Islam is at least capable of being compatible with Western values.

    Maybe if we focused on address the backwardness of that part of the world and not just fighting the extremists instead of labeling Islam a religion of hate (which the stupid take to mean it's time to start harrassing Muslims or worse), progress could be made.

    Frankly all this "well if we just label Islam a toxic ideology" with the obviously implication that it should be banned is not only impractical, it's clearly incorrect and counterproductive.
     
  17. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    The only thing it shows is that the more successful you are the less likely you would abide by religious text literally.

    Muslim Americans are well integrated because the pool of Muslim immigrants usually come through student visas or work visas, both of which are difficult to obtain and both of which imply some sort of success in higher education relative to their fellow citizens in their former countries.

    The more you care about materialistic gain(higher education, higher salary, career man), the less you care about religion.

    At the end of the day, the more closer you practice actual Islam, the less likely you are compatible with secular ideology.

    The same is true with Christianity but to a lesser extent primarily because of how the founder of Islam explicitly desired world wide domination governed by religious law. The most important figure in Christianity(Jesus) never expressed such sentiments. It is part of the reason why Islam is inherently a more dangerous ideology. There is no 'personal relationship with God' trope with Islam. It's all about Allah enforcing his will.
     
  18. sammy

    sammy Contributing Member

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    Islam has its backwards aspects so does Christianity and Judaism.


    Banning abortions outright, banning mar1juana but tobacco and alcohol is okay, lying to the general public to invade countries using fear (Republican party aka American sharia law), and so on and so on.

    To add, plenty of American Christians believe the the world is four to five thousand years old, discount evolution completely and think dinosaurs existing is a fairly tale. I car-pooled with a couple of these clowns. So modern.. Let me tell ya!!
     
    #18 sammy, Jul 19, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2016
  19. rockbox

    rockbox Around before clutchcity.com

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    I view most organized religions in a negative light so I'm equally biased. Islam is where Christians were 100 years ago. It takes time to change. There are plenty of things in bible that could be used to justify crappy stuff like slavery. Most Christians have just gotten passed reading the bible literally.
     
  20. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Contributing Member

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    No it isn't. That's just not historically correct.

    Christianity's tool for reformation is not a tool that Islam can use. I've explained it many times.

    Christianity's violent past is heavily concentrated in the history of the Catholic Church who used the lack of literacy of Latin amongst the general public to enforce their will and gain power. The Catholic Church lost its influence thanks to the public having access to copies of the Bible in their own native tongue due to the printing press. The Reformation was all about reading the message of Jesus for yourself and understanding that Jesus didn't want an entity like the Catholic Church AT ALL.

    Islam doesn't have that avenue. The largest issue with Islam is not an issue that can be solved with an 'enlightenment of Islam'. The number one issue with Islam is that its founder INTENDED Islam to be political. He intended Islam to spread by any means necessary. He DESIRED a government ruled by religious law.
     
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