excellent post. I honestly believe this is exactly the way JVG views transition. there can more much more to this than you describe. As jopatmc described, hustling the ball up court, with everyone hustling, puts pressure on the defense to get into their defense position much faster (often while scrambling to find their man). Many times you can execute a quick play before the defense gets set into their normal defensive plan. For instance, when the defense needs to double team one of your guys (or two of them or, also, is afraid of Bonzi getting great low post positioning or a mismatch at the elbow), you can find them before the defense is ready to defend them as a team--essentially, finding a high %, one-on-one in the 1st 10 seconds of the shot clock. transition bball is not all about a layup, trailers or quick 3s...those are primary breaks. Secondary breaks are what jopatmc is describing...based on putting maximum pressure on the defense early in the shot clock. That is transition basketball, too, but never appears as a fastbreak pt in the stat sheets. Maybe you meant to say more, but it's not just about getting up the court to have more time to set up a play, as you said. It's also about getting in those quick hitters because someone on the defense can't find their man, or failed to prevent Yao / Bonzi from getting to their low post spots, or there's a mismatch somewhere, or ...
i was going to agree with you a little until you took your argument in what i believe to be the wrong direction. i'm not saying your wrong, just that i don't agree with you. you're right that in NY and in his first year in houston he played a controlled half court game. low scores were expected because there were fewer possesions since each one used a lot of time off the 24 second clock. however, when he decided to move towards a faster pace, he didn't have the players to do it with. that team was not built to run. it takes a couple of tears to overturn the roster enough to completely change your identity but it's finally done. you will see a runing team this year. that doesn't mean that they will ONLY look to run like the suns. they will be an opportunistic team. look to run, if there is nothing there then run a play. i don't blame JVG for the terrible scoring second half in the first preseason game. plain and simple, the players shot 20%. there is nothing a coach can do about that.
why do people always say this. is a 10 year coaching career (8 full seasons) not enough of a sample size or something? in the 8 full seasons he coached, the pace factor of his teams has been as follows: 15th (his best team, going 57-25) 24th 24th 29th (last) 29th (last) 25th (first season with houston) 24th (big bad francis gone, pace doesn't change) 25th so, except for one season, the guy hasn't been above 24th in pace factor. that's one hell of an unlucky streak of players who don't know how to get the ball up the court for van gundy to have coached.
read my response right above your post. i think it fits here too. JVG has only recently wanted to move to a faster gameplan. the end of the 04-05 season, those guys were pushing the ball. that's what this team should look like. last year can be erased from memory, but he is obviously moving in a new direction that we saw a glimpse of at the end of the 04-05 season once the chemistry clicked. now, i'm not saying JVG has never made stupid mistakes or that he's the best coach for this team. just that people are sometimes too harsh on him. he is talking about change. we are seeing the proof in the roster moves. we can only wait and see how they play during the season to settle this argument. if they get to the second round, i';m fine with him, no matter how slow he ends up playing. just like if he can't get out of the first round, i want him gone. no matter how fast he ends up playing.
they were #1, and probably finished close to #1 (does anyone know where to look up fastbreak stats?). how much more could be done to prove francis doesn't hold a team back from being a good fastbreak team other than him playing on a team that was leading the league for a long time? does that mean he's the greatest fastbreak pg ever, no. but the notion the rockets couldn't run b/c francis was there seems silly in the face of those findings. yeah, b/c the rockets have never had trouble getting the ball into yao except that one year francis played with him. it wasn't basically the biggest problem in the entire offense for about the past 2 years until yao started dominating and owning the post after his injury. except he consistently led the team in plus/minus and PER until the first jvg season (he still led in plus/minus). and there was that season we went 2-23 without him but were near .500 (26-31) with him. was he good enough to be the best player on a championship team? no. smart enough or efficient enough to do it? no. has his career fallen off really far lately? yes. but that doesn't change the fact he was a big positive in the W/L column back in the days when the rockets had little else around him except cuttino (who, for as much as i like him and who seems to play good man defense, hit 3's, create for himself, without turning it over much is decidedly average by statistical measures like plus/minus and PER). he did what he could with the skills and abilities he had and helped the team far more than all the hate he gets from fans around here would indicate. ahh, i've refrained from francis arguments for a long time, but that felt good.
I have also, but I just can't let the fastbreaking complaint go. Its not based in any logic. the thing that bothers me most about the francis not fastbreaking complaint is the same people who argue he didn't want to fastbreak are the same people who argue he's an "and one" wanna be. last time I watched an "and one" basketball game, it was nothing but up and down transition and dunks. The other thing about it, like you suggested in an earlier post, its just an example of people blaming francis for any and everything. I had this argument with Macbeth once, and he talked about how the Celtics were a great fastbreak team and then he said something about the Celtics and compared them to Francis. I pointed out to him that there was part of the problem, he's comparing the great Celtic teams of the eighties to francis, not even the entire rocket team just francis. and he still didn't get it. when the rockets with francis had the players to run, particularly, walt williams, and james posey, they ran. and francis used to hit posey with some very good outlet passes.
i never said the rockets never had trouble getting into yao once steve was gone. it took the team a while to find a few good post entry passers. it was yao's 3rd season that they finally got a few of them (tmac, barry, wesley, sura). that i can't agree with more! my friend is a knick fan (we're in ny) and he constantly tells me how much steve sucks. can't shoot, can't pass, can't dribble. you know what? he plays hard. he plays to win. he's willing to fight for his teammates (like elbowing amare in the neck for dunking on yao). he's a good guy to have on a team. if a team builds around him then he looks like an all-star. he just isn't an all-star on a decent team.
Well, I think I might have been the first person on the bbs to make the argument that Francis was terrible at fastbreaking. Guy just doesn't know how to do it as a PG. As a SG, he'd be great at it, obviously. And to extend your list of guys he played with who could fastbreak, Shandon was the recipient of many a Stockton fastbreaks. Do you remember the time (maybe the first time) the bbs got made at Francis, for waving off Shandon on a fastbreak (december of 1999). I actually defended Francis, saying facetiously that if the last thing a rookie PG needs is a overrated Shandon Anderson whining on the court for not getting Stockton execution from a rookie. Don't forget Mobley in your list as someone designed to run the wing and finish on fastbreaks. Griffin. One would think a great fastbreaking PG would at least teach that high flyer how to get on the wing and jump at the rim. Oscar Torres could damn sure run the wing, for what little he played for us. Cato was actually a decent trailing center. Remember, he was an alley-oop favorite of Francis. so, he often had two, if not three proven running mates. Anderson, Mobley, and Posey. And you even included Walt, which I agree with, though many here won't remember his effectiveness in transition. You can argue that he wanted to ... I'll concede that. But I won't concede that he sucked at it.
shandon has completely fallen off the map since leaving stockton, so I'll concede that francis isn't as good a guard as stockton, seemingly the only point guard who could get anything out of shandon. kelvin cato is a good athlete but a big man on the break needs a good pair of hands, cato will never be confused as a big man with good hands. eddie griffin, well he may be a good fastbreaking big man when he isn't shooting at girlfriends. let's not go there. mobley was probably the only other good player at running the break who was here with francis long enough to develop any chemsitry. and they had their moments, unfortunately it takes more than two.
pgabriel, Francis has a mid-range game from the gods. I still believe that to this day. My belief (or logic) about Rudy's half court game and lack of fastbreaking (not just the iso's but later getting him into the midrange area) was based on the truism. That is, why beat your head against the wall: Francis was vastly more efficient in the halfcourt than transition. And Rudy is a % guy, if nothing else. I'm sure he had reels of numbers proving that Francis sucked at running a break vs slowing it up and playing to his immense strength...his midrange game.
most really good fastbreak teams have good outlet passers. That's what the rockets really lacked during the francis years, not to mention they needed francis and mobley to help out on rebounding. especially with mo taylor at the four spot. I agree about rudy trying to get the best out of that team isolating francis in the half court. but that doesn't take away from the fact that they just didn't have the players to run the break. kenny thomas may have been the best big francis played with at finishing on the break.
well, anyhoot. That's my response to your "[the Francis] fastbreaking complaint is not based on any logic" comment. It's kinda like: you say Tomato "fastbreaking PGs won't run w/o a fastbreaking team," and I say Duck.
This thread has been turned into Francis fastbreak debate. This is my 2 cents: Francis is not a good fastbreak PG because his mind is slower than his body. This affects all facets of his game. But nothing exposes more of this than the fastbreak because you have to be able to make fast decisions when you are leading the break. He has a tremedously gifted body but a slow mind. So he actually has to slow down his body in order to play good basketball. When he doesn't slow down, he makes random decisions. Sometimes it ends with a spectacular play because of his physical talent. Sometimes it ends in a really boneheaded turnover.
and that's why orlando led the nba in fastbreaking in the actual nba when francis was the actual point guard because of his slow mind. this is so ridiculous, I wonder if some of you guys have actually stepped on a basketball court. I'm not gonna argue if francis is slow because it doesn't take much to run a fast break. and when you are as athletically gifted as francis all you need to do is get out on the break, to be willing. its not rocket science like some of you guys make it out to be. the question isn't even was he capable, it is did the rockets have the opportunities to take fastbreak and did they take them.
Well, yes, I do play basketball. And I have to admit that my mind is much slower than Francis in terms of making basketball decision on the court. No, running a fast break is not very easy at top speed. I can only imagine how it is like to run in NBA speed. You seem to think that any athletically gifted athleles can make fast good decisions on a basketball court. That is just not true.
that wasn't my point, my point is that francis has an even easier time running the break because he can finish himself, he has more options than most point guards because he has more finishing ability than most two guards.
really? it seems to me any team that chooses to up tempo can. it doesn't insure you will be a winning team but its just a matter of style.
I'm no fan of SF's game or attitude; said it many times. But his ability to run the break wasn't the main problem. Debating this is truly majoring on a minor. Physically, he was perfect for the break because of his athleticism and ability to finish, even if his decision-making left something to be desired. I'd grade him a B+. Man, did this thread ever get off track.
you're right. because nba defenses will make it a losing proposition. You say Tom-AH-toe and I say Grape.
