Is Yao the reason Steve Francis made it to the playoffs?

Are you on crack?

 

There are 30 teams in the NBA, if you can't find 16 or more that he can start on he's below average.

 

GATER you broke your months long silence for this thread?



I continually underestimate the depths of your hatred. Did Francis pee on your rug, perchance? Or kick sand in your face at the beach in front of your girlfriend?

Pizza da hut, why don't you just look at one of the hundreds of Francis retrospective threads lying around this or the nba forum instead of starting a new one; you can read the same tired things by the same tired people (including myself) again and again to your hearts content without subjecting the rest of us to another ritualized Stalinesque denunciation.

It's over, he's gone, it happened, let it go, enjoy the Rockets season - which if you haven't noticed has been pretty freaking exciting for the last few months. Isn't that why we're here?

 

Lots of haters. I'm not one of them.

Yao, the franchise, and JVG all helped us get to the playoffs last year (don't forget Jim Jackson). Can T-Mac carry a team better than The Franchise? Yes, but quit hating. Steve is in Orlando, and all the best too him.

 

He's not good enough to be consistent, so what? Very few players in the league are. I just don't understand why so many people want to compare him to greatness and spit on him because he falls short of it.

Orlando does fine when he's playing his way and competing like he should, he was being a little B and forgot to play to win because Mobley for Christie turned out to be a complete bust so the Magic looked like crap. Lately he seemed to accept that his situation is what it is and he's not being a little B and he's competing now to win, so Orlando looks fine despite the injuries, coaching change, and dumbass GM.

 

he's NOT below average (he might BE average)

Cat COULD start... RIGHT NOW

1) Orlando (duhh)
2) Atlanta
3) New Jersey (Carter at the SF, jeffferson out)
4) Boston (Pierce at the SF)
5) LA Clippers
6) New Orleans
7) Sacramento (duhh squared)
8) Portland (you should count them twice... since they don't even HAVE a shooting guard)
9) Bobcats
10) Philly
11) Cleveland
12) Utah
13) Rockets (yes, I said Houston ! )
14) Denver (they should also count twice!)
15) Toronto
16) Indy

 

Francis was not even close to be the main reason that we made
the playoff last year. How many sucky games he had during our
run for the playoff? JVG was the most important. Kato, Cat, JJ,
Yao were as important as Francis. Francis was indeed the best
performer in the playoff because of matchup advantage.

For those who say Cat was below average. Let's not forget he
was an excellent defender. He scored and contained opponent
players. On the other hand, how many rookie PGs went off on
Francis?

 

I should of said, WHEN HEALTHY, that takes out the Nets.

He doesn't push Maggette or Simmons to the bench on the Clippers.

There's no way he pushes Wesley to the bench on the Rockets, Wesley's passing IMO makes him the better option.

He doesn't start over the legend in Indiana.

There are a couple more that could be argued, to me those are the obvious exceptions making him BELOW average as a starting shooting guard. Even if you want to say he's average, that's still average.

 

He's a max player, he himself said he should take a lot of responsibility b/c of it. I didn't say it, I'm just agreeing with his philosophy about his situation. Sorry if you don't agree.

Steve played well in the beginning of the season like he had every season with us and then inconsistency monster hit him like it does every year. That's just Steve.

And if you think Orlando is doing fine with the way he's playing, you should check out what Orlando fans actually think about their team and Steve...it ain't pretty.

What kind of stands out to me when I think of the Magic is that they have 2 unique guys with 15,5,5 averages(only 4-5 in the HISTORY OF THE NBA), a ROY candidate who averages a double double and is a good shot blocker, and they HAD three guys who made the western playoffs last year all together, yet they can't even get the 8th seed in the weak Leastern conference.
They have had a lot of drama to say the least with coaching changes, weisbrod, steve's missing games/kicking people, and a ridiculous trade. Still the east was suppose to be a cake walk for the franchise, he even said he plays better in the guard oriented east. I personally thought they would be at least a 8th or 7th seed, maybe they still will be.

 

Yao was last year's leading scorer, rebouder, and blocker.

 

The team missed the playoffs by one game the year before with a rookie Yao and their coach missing the last 17 games; they were going to the playoffs anyway, no matter what.

 

That was also before teams starting to zone Franchise and Mobley.

 

Maggette is hurt & Simmons is a SF
Considering the Pacers need all the offense they can get - Cat would start (maybe with Miller)

if you can START for even 1/3 of the teams in the league - you are above average - you may not be an all star, but you can play and would be one of the top 20 players at your position

"average" shooting guards end up being 6th men

"below average" end up on the IL with panter suckgamitus

 

People forget that this team sucked at the beginning of the year.

Sura, James, Barry, Wesley, and Mutombo have all played critical roles.

It's not just about Steve vs. T-mac (but let's face, T-mac is much much better the Franchise).

 

Money has little to do with how good a player is.

Greatness and responsibility are two different things. To me, he's responsible for the Magic's bad stretch of games not because he's inconsistent, but because he was playing like a little B. On the other hand, he's also responsible when they play well even if it's one of his down games because as long as he's competing the Magic are a good team. I just don't get it when people say he's not a great player so he sucks, that's not right, the correct way to describe him to me is simple, he's not a great player because he's a very good player.

Why should I care what Orlando fans have to say about him? They still can't deny the fact that he's their best player and by far their most impactful player.

Grant Hill is not the same guy he was back in the day, he scores but he doesn't rebound or pass like used to, he can't drive and he can't play the point forward role anymore. When they had those three guys starting they were a playoff team and the East is stronger this season so you won't see a 35 win team make the playoffs like the Celtics did last season.

Willis,

Cuttino needs injuries to start on the Clippers and the Pacers have Steven Jackson to play along side Reggie.

Cuttino can play, but when someone says an average point guard could of replaced Steve Francis on last year's team and at the bare minimun led them to a 7th seed they are 100% wrong. That implies that last year's team had a great bunch of role players and didn't need much help to win as much as they did. Wrong. All you gotta do is look at this year's role players and see that they are much better, and it isn't even close.

Last year's team with an average PG would of been Yao and a bunch of nobodies, Yao would of been the only guy with a consistent advantage at his position, that doesn't sound like a 45 win team in a tough Western Conference to me.

Yes. Yao was the reason Francis made the playoffs last season, no big deal because Francis was the reason Yao made the playoffs as well.

 

Originally posted by JumpMan

Money has little to do with how good a player is.

Players get paid more the better they are, although a lot of it is measured by potential...how can you argue against that? Hell, that's one of the biggest reason I don't like Steve's game...all the errors and we're paying him what Duncan and Shaq would get paid at his age and experience.

Greatness and responsibility are two different things. To me, he's responsible for the Magic's bad stretch of games not because he's inconsistent, but because he was playing like a little B.

Regardless of the reason you want to use for his bad play....IT WAS STILL BAD PLAY.(hell, it's even worse if it's not physical and he's simply being a baby about things isn't it?) Bad play=inconsistency...He's had the same stretches in Houston like he had in Orlando this past month. What excuse do you want to use for the past 5 years?

On the other hand, he's also responsible when they play well even if it's one of his down games because as long as he's competing the Magic are a good team.
The magic are a sub .500 team in the Leastern conference, that's NOT good.

I just don't get it when people say he's not a great player so he sucks, that's not right, the correct way to describe him to me is simple, he's not a great player because he's a very good player.

I don't think he sucks, he can be a great offensive player when he's on...no doubt. But many times when he's playing you think "What the F&*K is wrong with him?" It's like he doesn't give a damn that he's holding on to the ball too long or that he takes horrible shots when there are 4 other guys standing around waiting for a pass. There's no coincidence that Orlando's offense is known as stagnant and too much iso...much like we were for the past 5 years. You can love his dunks, antics, and playground stuff all you want, but it simply doesn't win when you're turning the ball over 4 times a game. If Steve simply cut his TOs down to Tmacs numbers he would be great, the frustrating thing is that we've been saying that since his rookie year and there comes a time when you have to say enough is enough, the dude is simply not going to learn.

Why should I care what Orlando fans have to say about him? They still can't deny the fact that he's their best player and by far their most impactful player.
I like to see what Orlando fans have to say b/c they're they ones watching steve every game and paying more attention to his game than we are. They're like a barometer for his play...right now the barometer is wanting him traded soon, if not soon then for sure when Howard comes more into his own b/c they don't think he passes enough to Howard(heard that one before too)...that's not the sign of a even a very good player, especially one whose job is to get everyone involved. I think Orlando fans are being especially harsh on him, in Houston most people gave him the benefit of the doubt because we watch him grow (him not his game) from a rookie until now, so he sort of had a special place in our hearts...but Orlando has no real attachment to him and already they want him shipped out as soon as they can get guys like Ray Allen or the #1 pick in the draft (LOL).

Grant Hill is not the same guy he was back in the day, he scores but he doesn't rebound or pass like used to, he can't drive and he can't play the point forward role anymore. When they had those three guys starting they were a playoff team and the East is stronger this season so you won't see a 35 win team make the playoffs like the Celtics did last season.
More excuses about not making the playoffs? Cmon man, we used those same ones when he was here...remember the 'best record NOT to make the playoffs'? Sooner or later you either make them or you don't, especially when given 6 chances. Still, the east is worse than our conference by far, you can't deny that.
BTW, Hill is an allstar and shoots around 51%(career high) from the perimeter...he's the perfect complement to Steve's game and well known to be the stablizing force on that team regardless of what he can't do anymore.

 

You say Duncan and Shaq>>>>>>>>Francis, I say Francis>>>>Jalen Rose, Penny Hardaway, Tim Thomas, Chris Webber and so on. All those guys get paid the max, so again money has little to do with how good a player is.

If saying he's not good enough to be consistent is an excuse then it's an excuse, but there's a difference between being inconsistent, like he always was and always will be, and not playing hard like he was during the Magic's bad stretch of games.

Hell yeah it is! A player can lead his team to a win if he's having a bad shooting night or even turning the ball over more than normal, but he will ALWAYS lose if he's not playing hard and not playing to win no matter the personal results.

Please give me some examples of players who cut their turnovers down that much during their careers, it just doesn't happen. From a little less than four to a little less than three is a huge difference, expecting that from any player is expecting too much IMO,

The Magic's win loss record is the barometer, not some fans whose opinions of Francis very from game to game, no matter the win or loss. Simply put, when he was playing well they were a good team, when he was being a baby they weren't, even though some of his baby games were good games individually. When I say good team I don't mean an elite team, I mean a winning team, a team that wins more than it loses. You can't expect much more from a team that Francis is the best player on, he's not THAT good. Yao still doesn't get the ball enough now and Howard didn't get the ball anymore when Francis was suspended, most of that talk is nonsense.

EXACTLY! That's why I said a few weeks ago that the Magic making or not making the playoffs is on Francis, those ugly games before the kicking and the two back to back loses to the Bobcats pretty much doomed the Magic's playoffs hopes. It's on him, so feel free to pile on.

Not really, speaking from a production sense, the OLD Hill is the perfect compliment because he can be the second playmaker and the second scorer.

 

Originally posted by JumpMan
You say Duncan and Shaq>>>>>>>>Francis, I say Francis>>>>Jalen Rose, Penny Hardaway, Tim Thomas, Chris Webber and so on. All those guys get paid the max, so again money has little to do with how good a player is.
I hear ya, but all those guys you mentioned other than Duncan and Shaq are not worth their contracts and are a burden to their team, that's my point.


Please give me some examples of players who cut their turnovers down that much during their careers, it just doesn't happen. From a little less than four to a little less than three is a huge difference, expecting that from any player is expecting too much IMO,
I agree, that's why I said he 'would be' great, it's obvious that he won't ever do that, but an significant improvement would've been nice, players like Ray Allen, Mike Bibby, and Jason Williams have all improved their TO's by at least 1 from their younger years...Jamal Tinsley went from 3.4-2.1, but regressed to 3.4 this year although he's been hurt most of the time. Still, it's not common...most of them just hover around the 2-3 TO range, not 3-4 and like you said that 1 TO/G is huge.


The Magic's win loss record is the barometer, not some fans whose opinions of Francis very from game to game, no matter the win or loss. Right now the barometer reads 34-37 what does that tell you?



Not really, speaking from a production sense, the OLD Hill is the perfect compliment because he can be the second playmaker and the second scorer.
I've seen Hill initate a lot of offense, hell the dude is averaging about 20 ppg on 51% shooting...that's freaking awesome, especially for a jump shooter. His passing and rebounding isn't what it use to be, that's for sure, but I'd love to have that guy on our team, can you imagine having someone like that with Yao and Tmac .

 

Yes, and the records of the Raptors, Knicks, and Sixers are?

When you allocate a big chunk of your limited cap resource to max players that don't produce like true superstars, your team is almost certainly doomed to mediocrity. So it seems to me you are making SRF's point.

And btw, I'm not so sure Francis of last year > Webber last year minus those injuries.

 

Cat is below average SG? What are you smoking? He is leading scorer in SAC right now. Arguably one of the best on one one SG in the league.

Steve shot like crap for most of the games last year. Led league in Techs. One one the worst PG in terms of TO/assist ratio. Not saying he wasnt a factor, but with that 11 mil we spent on him we could have better, like having Tmac.