Gascon, Thats not 'it'. Again, it is not about 'you're a poo-poo head', it is about dehumanizing a group of people. As Jeff stated, about seeing them as inferiors. For most people, name-calling may be as far as it goes. Others will take it to extremes and take action. Regardless, it is wrong.
What did he say? We'll probably never know, but if he said 'your play calling sucks, you're a ****ing dumbass', it is not in the same league as a racial slur.
Not necessarily. Issel could have two categories in his head, "Good Mexicans" and "Fu***** Mexicans." This guy was yelling at him so he goes in the FM category in Issel's mind. You can't determine whether or not he was applying it to the rest of the race. This is silly. Read up on white fear of black violence. You don't think whitey walkin down the street by McGregor Park or in Harlem would feel threatened if they hear "Hey you fu***** cracker, what are you doing in this neighborhood?" And also have we gone so PC now that we're actually saying that EVERYONE ELSE can go ape**** over our rhetoric, but we Whiteys can't ever be insulted because we're in power? If you were volunteering in the minority community and someone called you 'just another damn cracker,' wouldn't that be an insult? (The connotation being that whitey isn't REALLY interested in helping). When Isiah made racially motivated remarks about Bird I don't even think he got fined. I'm not down with Issel's comments. I think he should be punished in some manner. But trying to make a double standard as I think Jeff is doing is not right.
Rockets03, agree on the Hispanic community overreacting. Then again, if you guys could have heard Denver sports talk radio that day, you would have realized that about 50% of the population there was overreacting. One woman, a hispanic teacher, called in and said she was going to do everything in her power to get the school district to ban the Nugs and any activities they do. Then, you had the rednecks calling in saying that, and I swear I'm not making this up, "Issel should get a raise, he's only speaking the truth about those people". Ugh. Really reassured your faith in humankind.
First of all let me get this point across. Minorities aren't asking for anybody's "protection" but it would be nice if people like you treated other with respect. He called the guy a Mexican piece of sh*t, if you can't see what's wrong with it I'm sorry. You have a pretty big ego if you think all minorities in the world are on their hands and knees begging for your protection, trust me that isn't the case. As for your comment that the guy was "running to mommy" after being called a name if you had read the article you would know that the guy who Issell called the name wasn't even the one complaining! News media played it back and DENVER punished him! The guy didn't even make a big deal about it Issell's bosses did, so go run to his bosses and tell them they were running home to mommy. As for telling somebody to "get over it" that's easy for you to say, I wonder how you would react if someone came up to you and called you a fat piece of sh*t, or a pathetic piece of sh*t. I'm sure you wouldn't be thinking that all minorities need your "protection" since you seem to be all powerful.
<B>Not necessarily. Issel could have two categories in his head, "Good Mexicans" and "Fu***** Mexicans." This guy was yelling at him so he goes in the FM category in Issel's mind. You can't determine whether or not he was applying it to the rest of the race. </B> What a load of crap. Do you actually believe this? wow. NOTE: There might be several types of good crap and bad crap, so you can't determine whether I am criticizing or complimenting you.
Thank you Mr_oily! What I can't figure out is why are there so many people rationalizing what Issell said, but pounding on Jason Williams? Neither one was any different.
on of my best friends is "hispanic" and i call him dirty mexican more than i say his name...even when i call his house and talk to his girlfriend i ask if the dirty mexican is home...
<B>on of my best friends is "hispanic" and i call him dirty mexican more than i say his name...even when i call his house and talk to his girlfriend i ask if the dirty mexican is home...</B> Try that on someone you don't know and who doesn't know you're joking and let us know how it goes.. Actually, don't. I don't want to be responsible for the results.
Mr. Oily and Jeff succiently made the point. I think don't think the majority/minority group issue is key in all this. If someone said "you f*cking xxxxx piece of sh*t"--fill in majority groups if like--- Christian or White or Cracker or American or whatever, you are going to offend a lot of people. Another subtle point is that just calling someone a "Mexican" could be offensive, for instance if the person might not be Mexican at all. The could be an American that might have cultural/ethnic influence from Spain, native people of the Americas, and/or Mexico. They might well take offense at calling them "Mexican". Also, one difference in this case than for say Reggie White or John Rocker's offensive and bigoted remarks (can't believe I am sort of defending John Rocket) but he said it during a league sponsored event and he is a coach. Now others may disagree, but I think a coach has additional culpability for not being outwardly bigoted than a player.
First off, I'm not talking about physical power. If black men beat up a white man because he is white, they are no better than the KKK doing the opposite. What I'm talking about is respect. Respect should NEVER be based on the color of your skin, your race, your religion, your ethnicity or any other outward or unchangeable characteristic. If the respect you give is predicated on these types of things, there is a problem. If, in addition, you use that prejudice as part of your influence, then you are using a considerable amount of power as a white person. Having power means having responsibility. It means not just holding others accountable for their actions but holding yourself up to a higher standard and setting an example. I'm not talking about political correctness. If being respectful of another person's heritage and not using it as a way to denegrate people is PC, then I guess I'm PC. I was raised to believe that you treat people with respect at all times no matter who they are or where they come from or what they have done. Not doing so would be dishonorable. I am not setting up any double standard. What Issel said was wrong. If Issel was Hispanic and he called a white guy in the stands a "****ing cracker piece of ****," he would be wrong as well. It is all about respect.
But crap itself is pejorative. The term "Mexican" is neutral. It, objectively, denotes nationality of origin. I suppose it's also confused with ethnicity sometimes, now. If I say I like most Mexican people I know, that's no different than saying I like most Irish people I know. The term "Mexican" is neutral. When Issel says "****ing Mexican" the term Mexican is still neutral, in itself. The term "****ing" works as a negative modifier, but doesn't mean that Mexican can't simply be a neutral noun. If I say "you're a ****ty human being" that doesn't mean I'm saying that all human beings are ****ty. It's just an identifier. Now, if I had to guess... I'd say Issel was being racist. But I'm not going to rush to judgement like many here want to do.
Yes, I totally agree with you here. Like I said before, I wouldn't mind too much if someone called me a f*cking Canadian. I think that the people who get all offended and out of sorts about being called Mexican, black or whatever are more racist than those of us who just have an easygoing attitude and don't worry about things so much.
I completely disagree with you. In the term "****ty human being", the term ****ty is modifying "human being." You are describing that person's character, saying that he is a sorry excuse for a human being. In the term "****ing Mexican", on the other hand, it's exceedingly obvious that the term ****ing isn't modifying Mexican. ****ing is used as a perjorative swear word. When you follow with a description of a minority group, be it "Jew" or "Gay" or "Mexican", you're also using the name of that group as a pejorative, saying that you dislike the person you're insulting, at least in part, because he is a member of that group.
If minorities called all white people f*cking Canadians you might begin to think otherwise. Though Mexican may define a nationality and not a race, Dan Issel is clearly one of those many Americans who wrongfully equates the term Mexican with all latinos. Issel had no way of knowing this guy's nationality by looking at him anymore than I would know a white person were Canadian so it's quite apparent he was slurring him because he was latino, not because he knew in fact that he was Mexican.
Now that is just silly. How is going to an effort to call people what they want to be called and rebuke those who don't make such an effort "more racist". My view (in part of travelling to other developed countries) is that we are more hung up by trying to go all out to ignore culture/ethnicty stuff (we get defensive all about it), most places it is more normal to discuss such issues openly and in a non-offensive way. Again, now this is a side point, but especially in the SW decribing someone as "Mexican" can be offensive in of itself--it can be used to suggest a person is not American simply because they have Mexican decent or appear to have Mexican decent to someone who doesn't know better. I have known plenty of people that in describing people as "Mexican" clearly meant it in a negative way. Now someone who is a Mexican national is unlikely to take offense, but others who describe themselves as Mexican American, Chicaco or various other Latino groups probably will.
I vote that Issel was VERY offensive, and he is lucky to have kept his job. His job is to help win games and gain fans for the Nugget franchise. So far, he has failed in both areas. Hispanic sports fans are significant in the Denver area, and Issel should show them respect.
That may be true, but it's not necessarily. There's nothing mutually exclusive with what Issel said and my interpretation. I think he probably meant it as you suggest. However, I'm not ready to assume that. Like it or not, people often use ethnic identifiers even when they're not being explicitly racist. Issel, at best, was being insenstive. But that's not nearly as bad as being racist.
