Is Tony Blair a war criminal?

HayesStreet · Jul 13, 2006

gifford1967 said:

During the presidential campaign they invited members of the public to submit ads about Bush, the winners would be broadcast on TV. More than 1,000 submissions came in.

Two ads were submitted that made a comparison between Bush and Hitler. Both were voted down by their members and the public, who reviewed the ads.

Later they apologized that the ads had even gotten to point where they could be voted on.

So MoveOn never compared Bush to Hitler. MoveOn membership rejected the ads through their votes and MoveOn explicitly denounced the content of the ads.

In wingnuttia it's an article of faith that MoveOn compared Bush to Hitler. In the real world, Not so much.
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So they aired two ads that compared Bush to Hitler, but it isn't fair to say they compared Bush to Hitler. Ok. I guess if we're drawing fine lines then I should point out that the original statement was that a 'reference' was made and I don't think it is a stretch of wingnuttia to say that moveon.org made a reference to Bush/Hitler - they aired TWO ads saying exactly that.

FranchiseBlade · Jul 13, 2006

HayesStreet said:

What? No it isn't, lol. You claimed noone was equating Bush with Hitler. These photos conclusively prove your statement is false. That the signs were part of protests with thousands of people belies your further (and completely irrevelant) claim that these people are on the marginalized fringes. These are the same people who are calling Bush a war criminal, lol. Of course, you didn't answer the question posed by the thread, so this is just a nice little distraction. These threads serve a pretty good purpose by contrasting how easily people want to declare Bush a war criminal but don't want to say it about Clinton and Blair - mainly IMO because Clinton and Blair are likeable and relatively well spoken and well thought of despite their mistakes.
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nobody is comparing Bush to Hitler. If you want to count a marginalized fringe as somebody then go ahead. Technically they are someone, but in any realistic accounting of politics they are nobody.

The fact that people who don't represesent a sizable amount of anything showed up at a free public demonstration with thousands of other people who weren't making the comparison does not further belie my point. This isn't guilt by association where everyone is guilty because a few fringe people with no real voice showed up at the same event.

I'm not guilty of taking drugs in public, though I have been at concerts where public drug taking was going on.

moveon.org never made ads comparing Bush to Hitler. When the majority of the nation doesn't approve of Bush it is not unreasonable to categorize a few of the outerfringe as nobody. Technically that is incorrect, in a practical sense it is accurate.

HayesStreet · Jul 13, 2006

FranchiseBlade said:

nobody is comparing Bush to Hitler. If you want to count a marginalized fringe as somebody then go ahead. Technically they are someone, but in any realistic accounting of politics they are nobody.

The fact that people who don't represesent a sizable amount of anything showed up at a free public demonstration with thousands of other people who weren't making the comparison does not further belie my point. This isn't guilt by association where everyone is guilty because a few fringe people with no real voice showed up at the same event.

I'm not guilty of taking drugs in public, though I have been at concerts where public drug taking was going on.

moveon.org never made ads comparing Bush to Hitler. When the majority of the nation doesn't approve of Bush it is not unreasonable to categorize a few of the outerfringe as nobody. Technically that is incorrect, in a practical sense it is accurate.
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As grady once said so elloquently: goo goobilly goop.

What does any of this mean, FB? Have people compared Bush to Hitler? Yes. Undeniably. Are they 'the fringe?' Yes. So are those calling Bush a war criminal. Did moveon MAKE ads comparing Bush to Hitler? No. Did they AIR ads that compared Bush to Hitler? Yes. It is undeniable. Does any of this have anything to do with the thread? No really - gwayneco just poorly constructed his follow up sentence.

CBrownFanClub · Jul 13, 2006

Hayes Street: The thread does not "demonize" per se; i think the logic behind it - that all the lefties think bush equals hilter equals mussolil equals blair equals whoever - is an attempt to simplfy the argument by simplifying the opponent, that's all. I dont think threads like this reflect a respect for the opposing viewpoint or any desire whatsoever to understand what someone else is thinking, it's just an attempt to score faux-"points" about the flip flop illogical dumbness of the people on the other side. There is a logic to these threads - i just think it is a little banal.

I would argue the point with more gusto with you but 1) I am tired b) you literally have the best user name of anyone on this board. I am sorry we disagree on this, but I will totally hand this one to someone who references that totally incredbile commerical. God it was awesome. LeBron's Nike commercial holds no candle to it.

HayesStreet · Jul 13, 2006

CBrownFanClub said:

Hayes Street: b) you literally have the best user name of anyone on this board. I am sorry we disagree on this, but I will totally hand this one to someone who references that totally incredbile commerical. God it was awesome. LeBron's Nike commercial holds no candle to it.
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Lol. Flattery, sir, will get you everywhere!

gwayneco · Jul 13, 2006

Currently 61% of the voters in the George Bush poll say he is a war criminal. Surely a majority would also vote that Hitler is a war criminal if I were to post such a poll.

FranchiseBlade · Jul 13, 2006

gwayneco said:

Currently 61% of the voters in the George Bush poll say he is a war criminal. Surely a majority would also vote that Hitler is a war criminal if I were to post such a poll.
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Surely they would. That doesn't mean they are calling Bush Hitler. Bush has a nose, two ears, red blood cells, white blood cells. So did Hitler. That doesn't mean the two are really being compared in any meaningful way.

Deckard · Jul 13, 2006

gwayneco said:

Currently 61% of the voters in the George Bush poll say he is a war criminal. Surely a majority would also vote that Hitler is a war criminal if I were to post such a poll.
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You're really a sick puppy, gwayneco. Have you ever considered therapy? I'm serious.

Keep D&D Civl.

rimrocker · Jul 13, 2006

HayesStreet said:

Did they AIR ads that compared Bush to Hitler? Yes. It is undeniable.
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By air, do you mean posted the two on a website with 1,500 other ads? MoveOn never created, endorsed, or aired the ads and when they were discovered on a site where anyone could submit ads for a contest, they were pulled.

"The ad in question has not been linked on any of our web pages since
December, and even then only appeared to a small group of MoveOn members who
were rating ads in the MoveOn Voter Fund ad contest.
When the Bush campaign mounted its spot on June 25th, comparing John Kerry
to Hitler using images from this ad, we restored the old contest ad from
backup tapes to our web server for review in response to queries from
journalists. This file was apparently dredged up by Drudge, but never
appeared on a MoveOn web page viewed by the public. The file itself is now
deleted from our web server.
The Bush campaign's Hitler ad still appears on their campaign website,
linked for public viewing: http://www.georgewbush.com/VideoAndAudio/
We have always believed that it is irresponsible to use images of Hitler
in a political context. In contrast, the Bush/Cheney campaign's ad that
juxtaposes images of Hitler and John Kerry is still publicly displayed on
their site. We call on the Bush/Cheney campaign to remove this odious ad."
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=105&STORY=/www/story/07-12-2004/0002208666
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Oh yes, the fringe...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A8416-2000Jun27

For example, retiring Rep. Helen Chenoweth-Hage (R-Idaho), commenting on one of Clinton's national monument designations, said, "This president is engaging in the largest land grab since the invasion of Poland."

Rep. John Shadegg (R-Ariz.) went a bit further a couple of weeks ago when Clinton designated Arizona's Ironwood Forest a national monument. "I would draw a parallel to Hitler," Shadegg said. "He eroded the will of the German people to resist evil."

Our favorite is Arkansas Republican Rep. Jay Dickey's recent fundraising letter reminding supporters they can give him $1,000 for the primary and another $1,000 in the general election campaign. He doesn't want anyone to "later . . . say to me that I should have reminded you of the threats," he said.

"Just as people who read Hitler's 'Mein Kampf' and then later were surprised at the evils of the 3rd Reich [sic]," Dickey said, "we have the blueprint for what the White House plans to do: defeat me! This is because I not only dared to vote my conscience on the impeachment issue, but dared to do it after a publicly expressed threat that I would lose the election if I did. Are we going to let an astounding abuse of power go unanswered?"
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And don't forget to query "Dean Hitler" under Google Images.

Or look up O'Reilly calling Air America the Joseph Goebbels Network.

Or Savage calling Soros Goebbels.

or Google "Michael Moore" and "Leni Riefenstahl"

I could go on, but it's impolite and rude to make Hitler/Nazi comparisons.

gwayneco · Jul 13, 2006

rimrocker said:

By air, do you mean posted the two on a website with 1,500 other ads? MoveOn never created, endorsed, or aired the ads and when they were discovered on a site where anyone could submit ads for a contest, they were pulled.

Oh yes, the fringe...

And don't forget to query "Dean Hitler" under Google Images.

Or look up O'Reilly calling Air America the Joseph Goebbels Network.

Or Savage calling Soros Goebbels.

or Google "Michael Moore" and "Leni Riefenstahl"

I could go on, but it's impolite and rude to make Hitler/Nazi comparisons.
Click to expand...

Or Dick Durbin calling our troops Nazis, Communists, and Pol Potists.

Legendary21 · Jul 13, 2006

I think Blair is a war criminal.

Bush and Hitler are/were to statists pretending to be something else. Well maybe Hitler didn't so much pretend to be non-statist as to be a nice statist, and maybe Bush doesn't really pretend any more either. He's moved on to management by fear (the war on terror).

gwayneco · Jul 13, 2006

And George Soros:

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=36456

In November, Soros compared Bush to Hitler in an interview with the Washington Post.

Saying he believed the White House was guided by a "supremacist ideology," Soros complained: "America, under Bush, is a danger to the world ... When I hear Bush say, 'You're either with us or against us,' it reminds me of the Germans ... My experiences under Nazi and Soviet rule have sensitized me."
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gwayneco · Jul 13, 2006

http://www.victorhanson.com/articles/hanson031805.html

Little Eichmanns" and "Digital Brownshirts"
Deconstructing the Hitlerian slur
by Victor Davis Hanson
National Review Online

The effort to remove fascists in the Middle East and jump-start democracy, for all its ups and downs, has been opposed not just by principled critics who bristled at tactics and strategy, but also by peculiarly vehement cynics here and abroad — whose disgust was so often in direct proportion to their relative political impotence.

One of their most hackneyed charges, begun almost at the beginning of this war, has been the Bush/America as Hitler/Nazi Germany comparison. True, fast-changing events in the Middle East recently have left many of these hypercritics either embarrassed, discredited — or desperately reinventing themselves into the “I told you so” crowd. But we should not forget these slurs — nor expect them to disappear entirely inasmuch as they reflect a deep sort of self-loathing among Western elites.

Immediately after September 11, Ward Churchill compared the victims in the Twin Tower to “little Eichmanns.” Sen. Robert Byrd (D., W.Va.) more recently likened President George W. Bush’s political methodology to what transpired in Nazi Germany. Earlier during the run-up to the Iraqi war, German Justice Minister Herta Daeubler-Gmelin smeared Bush with a similar Hitlerian analogy.

In fact, what do Linda Ronstadt, Harold Pinter, Scott Ritter, Ted Rall, and George Soros all have in common? The same thing that unites Fidel Castro, the European street, the Iranians, and North Koreans: an evocation of some aspects of Adolf Hitler’s Nazi Germany to deprecate President Bush in connection with the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

At first glance, all this wild rhetoric is preposterous. Hitler hijacked an elected government and turned it into a fascist tyranny. He destroyed European democracy. His minions persecuted Christians, gassed over six million Jews, and created an entire fascistic creed predicated on anti-Semitism and the myth of a superior Aryan race.

Whatever one thinks of Bush’s Iraqi campaign, the president obtained congressional approval to invade and pledged $87 billion to rebuild the country. He freely weathered mass street demonstrations and a hostile global media, successfully defended his Afghan and Iraq reconstructions through a grueling campaign and three presidential debates, and won a national plebiscite on his tenure.

In a world that is almost uniformly opposed to the democratic Jewish state, Israel has no better friend than Bush, who in turn is a believer in, not a tormentor of, Christianity. Afghanistan and Iraq, with 50 million freed, have elected governments, not American proconsuls, and there is a movement in the Middle East toward greater democratization — with no guarantee that such elected governments will not be anti-American. No president has been more adamantly against cloning, euthanasia, abortion, or anything that smacks of the use of science to predetermine super-genes or to do away with the elderly, feeble, or unborn.

So what gives with this crazy popular analogy — one that on a typical Internet Google search of “Bush” + “Hitler” yields about 1,350,000 matches?

One explanation is simply the ignorance of the icons of our popular culture. A Linda Ronstadt, Garrison Keillor, or Harold Pinter knows nothing much of the encompassing evil of Hitler’s regime, its execution of the mentally ill and disabled, the systematic cleansing of the non-Aryans from Europe, or mass executions and starvation of Soviet prisoners. Like Prince Harry parading around in his ridiculous Nazi costume, quarter-educated celebrities who have some talent for song or verse know only that name-dropping “Hitler” or his associates gets them some shock value that their pedestrian rants otherwise would not warrant.

Ignorance and arrogance are a lethal combination. Nowhere do we see that more clearly among writers and performers who pontificate as historians when they know nothing about history.

On occasion, those who are tainted, sometimes unfairly, with past charges of rightist extremism, find some psychic release in calling an American democratic president or his conduct Nazi-like. Thus, a German politician, who de facto unfortunately operates under the suspicions of the post-Nazi world, gains the moral high ground and moral fides by gratuitously deflecting attention to an American — not as the descendant of the liberators of the Europe, but as the true inheritor of the German Hitlerian mantel.

George Soros can nearly destroy the Bank of England in his hyper-capitalist financial speculations but somehow find spiritual cover among the leftists of Moveon.org, which he subsidized and which ran ads comparing the president to Hitler. Sen. Byrd, who suffers from the odium of an early membership with the racist Ku Klux Klan, perhaps finds it ameliorative to associate others with the tactics of the 20th century’s premier racist.

Entire continents can play this game. If Europe is awash in anti-Semitism, then one mechanism to either ignore or excuse it is to allege that the United States — the one country that is the most hospitable to Jews — is governed by a Hitler-like killer. Americans, who freed Europe from the Nazis, are supposed to recoil from such slander rather than cry shame on its promulgators, whose grandfathers either capitulated to the Nazis or collaborated — or were Nazis themselves.

If the sick analogy to Hitler is intended to conjure up a mass murderer, then the 20th century’s two greatest killers, Mao and Stalin, who slaughtered or starved somewhere around 80 million between them, are less regularly evoked. Perhaps that omission is because so many of the mass demonstrators, who bore placards of Bush’s portrait defaced with Hitler’s moustache, are overtly leftist and so often excuse extremist violence — whether in present-day Cuba or Zimbabwe — if it is decorated with the rhetoric of radical enforced equality.

The flood of the Hitler similes is also a sign of the extremism of the times. If there was an era when the extreme Right was more likely to slander a liberal as a communist than a leftist was to smear a conservative as a fascist, those days are long past. True, Bill Clinton brought the deductive haters out of the woodwork, but for all their cruel caricature, few compared him to a mass-murdering Mao or Stalin for his embrace of tax hikes and more government. “Slick Willie” was not quite “Adolf Hitler” or “Joseph Stalin.”

But something has gone terribly wrong with a mainstream Left that tolerates a climate where the next logical slur easily devolves into Hitlerian invective. The problem is not just the usual excesses of pundits and celebrities (e.g., Jonathan Chait’s embarrassing rant in the New Republic on why “I hate George W. Bush” or Garrison Keillor’s infantile slurs about Bush’s Republicans: “brown shirts in pinstripes”), but also supposedly responsible officials of the opposition such as former Sen. John Glenn, who said of the Bush agenda: “It’s the old Hitler business.”

Thus, if former Democratic presidential candidate Al Gore breezily castigates Bush’s Internet supporters as “digital brownshirts”; if current Democratic-party chairman Howard Dean says publicly, “I hate the Republicans and everything they stand for" — or, “This is a struggle of good and evil. And we're the good"; or if NAACP chairman Julian Bond screams of the Bush administration that “Their idea of equal rights is the American flag and the Confederate swastika flying side by side,” the bar of public dissent has so fallen that it is easy to descend a tad closer to the bottom to compare a horrific killer to an American president.

Is there a danger to all this? Plenty. The slander not only brings a president down to the level of an evil murderer, but — as worried Jewish leaders have pointed out — elevates the architect of genocide to the level of an American president. Do the ghosts of six million that were incinerated — or, for that matter, the tens of millions who were killed to promote or stop Hitler’s madness — count for so little that they can be so promiscuously induced when one wishes to object to stopping the filibuster of senatorial nominations or to ignore the objection of Europeans in removing the fascistic Saddam Hussein?

There is something profoundly immoral for a latte-sipping, upscale Westerner of the postmodern age flippantly evoking Hitler when we think of the countless souls lost to the historical record who were systematically starved and gassed in the factories of death of the Third Reich.

Finally, in such a debased climate, it was no accident that Alfred A. Knopf published a novel, Checkpoint, about musing how to kill Bush. Nor was it odd to hear of a New York play, “I’m Gonna Kill the President,” apparently centered around killing Bush. Late last year, a columnist in the Guardian, Charles Brooker, wrote to his British readers on the eve of the election :

On November 2, the entire civilised world will be praying, praying Bush loses. And Sod's law dictates he'll probably win, thereby disproving the existence of God once and for all. The world will endure four more years of idiocy, arrogance and unwarranted bloodshed, with no benevolent deity to watch over and save us. John Wilkes Booth, Lee Harvey Oswald, John Hinckley Jr. — where are you now that we need you?

All this venom is not so funny when we now witness a Saudi American young man, Ahmed Omar Abu Ali, currently under indictment for allegedly planning just such a murder. After all, when it becomes a cheap and easy thing to compare a president to a century’s great criminal, then it becomes even cheaper and easier to dream — or plan — to kill him.

At some point a Gore, Byrd, or Soros has a moral responsibility not to employ Nazi analogy, if for no other reason than to prevent unleashing even greater extremism by the unhinged. No doubt Abu Ali’s lawyer one day soon will say that his disturbed client’s “musings” were no different from what he read from Knopf or in the Guardian — or that he simply fell under the influence of Moveon.org and thought it was his duty to remove the Bush/Nazi threat that even U.S. senators and presidential candidates had identified and warned about.

The final irony? The president who is most slandered as Hitler will probably prove to be the most zealous advocate of democratic government abroad, the staunchest friend of beleaguered Israel, and the greatest promoter of global individual freedom in our recent memory. In turn, too many of the Left who used to talk about idealism and morality have so often shown themselves mean-spirited, cynical, and without faith in the spiritual power of democracy.

What an eerie — and depressing — age we live in.

©2005 Victor Davis Hanson
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gifford1967 · Jul 13, 2006

HayesStreet said:

So they aired two ads that compared Bush to Hitler, but it isn't fair to say they compared Bush to Hitler. Ok. I guess if we're drawing fine lines then I should point out that the original statement was that a 'reference' was made and I don't think it is a stretch of wingnuttia to say that moveon.org made a reference to Bush/Hitler - they aired TWO ads saying exactly that.
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By your logic, we could say Clutch called Bush a war criminal because people have posted that on this website. Or even better, I could go find those videos upload them to YouTube and post them here. Then we could say that ClutchFans "aired" two ads that compared Bush to Hitler.

gwayneco · Jul 13, 2006

Here's some fun from the Kos Kidz.

http://davidsfr.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/6/26/91935/7523

Comparing Bush to Hitler is good common sense
by urthwalker
Mon Jun 26, 2006 at 06:19:35 AM PDT
Comparing Bush to Hitler isn't about trying to sensationalize politics beyond the fray, it is about remember the lessons of history and ensuring they do not have an opportunity to repeat themselves.

urthwalker's diary :: ::
I found this nice little Bush/Hitler comparison on MyLeftWing. It's too long to clip, just go read it for yourself. Likewise, SmirkingChimp.com printed this article today on Mussolini and fascism.

I, for one, am awfully tired of the right wing's lips dripping with feigned outrage whenever somebody trots out the Hitler analogy against Bush's constitutional-ass-wiping du jour. The essence of these tirades always boil down to an outright dismissal of a supposedly irresponsible and patently false comparison to the worst human transgression in modern history. These people make me want to retch. Has Bush exterminated 6 million Jews? No, of course not. Not yet at least. But to summarily dismiss such criticism on the grounds that he hasn't yet reached Hitler's horrific apex is to engage in the worst form of willful denial.

The brand name of Hitler is far more than his human persona and is certainly greater than his culminating acts. It is the story of a megalomaniacal man whose rise to power emerged from democratic conventions. He is a warning to all thriving and civilized democracies that the process itself can be slowly and lawfully perverted into something unrecognizable. He is a cautionary tale of how easily a population can be manipulated through propaganda and fear into committing, through acquiescence or activity, acts of unimaginable atrocity within a very short time span. We remember Hitler because we never want to forget how even representative governments can slide into dictatorships overnight.

And that is why comparing Bush to Hitler isn't so much an exaggeration, it's just good common sense. No, Bush has yet to mount an organized campaign of genocide per se. But we make these comparisons now, early, when we see our leaders following an all-too-familiar path. We do this so that we don't wake up one morning to a mushroom cloud over Tehran and rue our ineptness to stop Bush from finally outpacing Hitler's body count and delusions of global domination.

Because then we won't be comparing Bush to Hitler, we will be comparing Hitler to Bush.

()( )()( _) ()( ) ()( )( ) ()The Hindsight Factor) ()( )()( ) ()( _) ()( )( ) (
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Kos himself has done an ad for Lieberman's primary opponent in Conn.

insane man · Jul 13, 2006

is gwayneco a racist xenophob who hates muslims?

Deckard · Jul 13, 2006

insane man said:

is gwayneco a racist xenophob who hates muslims?
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I think he's just a sick individual who needs some serious help. Responding to him is most likely making his conditon worse. This will be my last post in a gwayneco thread, at least until it is obvious he has gotten the help he needs from a good professional in the mental health industry.

Good luck, gwayneco. Seriously, you need it.

Keep D&D Civil.

gwayneco · Jul 13, 2006

Deckard said:

I think he's just a sick individual who needs some serious help. Responding to him is most likely making his conditon worse. This will be my last post in a gwayneco thread, at least until it is obvious he has gotten the help he needs from a good professional in the mental health industry.

Good luck, gwayneco. Seriously, you need it.

Keep D&D Civil.
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Same to you.

HayesStreet · Jul 13, 2006

rimrocker said:

By air, do you mean posted the two on a website with 1,500 other ads? MoveOn never created, endorsed, or aired the ads and when they were discovered on a site where anyone could submit ads for a contest, they were pulled.
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In their apology they said the two ads 'made it through' their screening process, which doesn't imply a free for all in getting an ad up.

rimrocker said:

Oh yes, the fringe...
And don't forget to query "Dean Hitler" under Google Images.
Or look up O'Reilly calling Air America the Joseph Goebbels Network.
Or Savage calling Soros Goebbels.
or Google "Michael Moore" and "Leni Riefenstahl"
I could go on, but it's impolite and rude to make Hitler/Nazi comparisons.
Click to expand...

What does any of this have to do with anything?

HayesStreet · Jul 13, 2006

gifford1967 said:

By your logic, we could say Clutch called Bush a war criminal because people have posted that on this website. Or even better, I could go find those videos upload them to YouTube and post them here. Then we could say that ClutchFans "aired" two ads that compared Bush to Hitler.
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If he called for ads, screened them, then put them out for public comment - sure. Otherwise, no.

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