1. Depends on the church/denomination. Presbyterians have a strong democratic tradition and, therefore, a lot of transparency. My church doeso budget meetings and shows you pie graphs of all the allotments. They don't announce individual salaries, but would tell a member if he were to ask. Moreover, there are some things they don't consider payable out of the tithe. Tithes go to operate the church, pay salaries, plant other churches, pay for mercy ministries, support missionaries, etc. It will not be used to pay for building construction, which has its own fund people contribute to outside of the tithe. And, the usually do not pay for church community expenses, like retreats, except scholarships for people too poor to pay their own way. 2. Again, it depends. I believe our budget is made by the ministers and elders and then approved by the members. 3. No one is going to hell for not paying a tithe. If you're going to hell, it's because you are inherently a sinner, cursed from Adam, and have not accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Not paying your tithe may be some of the fruit of your damnation, but not the cause.
I just thought I'd add that the 10% has mainly been a guideline for giving and not a hard and fast legalistic rule. It's kinda ambiguous, too -- 10% pre-tax or 10% post-tax? IIRC, I wanna say that in the early church, people actually gave more than 10%? It's more important to give joyfully. You should never be giving out of guilt. 10% quite possibly isn't that huge to some people, too. There's a story in scripture where a bunch of wealthy people were giving tons of money, while a widow who had close to nothing basically gave two cents. What did God think about this? "The truth is that this poor widow gave more to the collection than all the others put together. All the others gave what they'll never miss; she gave extravagantly what she couldn't afford—she gave her all." But again.. giving should be done out of joy, not guilt.
If you are trying to fit giving 10% into an already existing budget, no doubt it would be hard. But, if you have always given 10% of your income, its not hard at all. And I don't think 10% is a rule, so that once you give 10% you're done. We have always said it our offering doesn't strain us at all, we aren't giving enough. As far as pre-tax or after-tax, I've always thought that 10% of your first-fruits meant 10% pre-tax...and my wife and I are yet to get there. We have tried to increase our giving each year, but haven't made it to 10% yet. Its gotten a lot tougher the last 6-9 months. But I include what I give to church, what I donate to food pantries, shelters, goodwill industries. On top of that, I try to give some of my time and talents (not that I have a lot to give) also. I don't feel bound to giving all that I give to my church building, I expand that.
Thanks, thought you were referring to a diabolical Jesus plotting. As far as the thread, I resent pressure and fear tactics. Giving should be an act of love. It is not about the size of the gift but the size of the sacrifice to love and help others. As it has been stated- it is a matter of the heart. Fear, manipulation and exploitation have no place in a Christian church. Give with joy, give with grateful hearts, give willingly. "Lay up your treasure in heaven not on earth." Help the poor, the widows and the fatherless. Visit those in prison, feed the hungry, clothe the naked, pray for the sick; that will return joy. It is better to give than to receive.
I also believe in open accountability for churches. If the church isn't transparent with money, it can lead to error. Some pastors are afraid that church members can't handle or understand the church finances but I find that insulting towards the members.
I think it is just natural for religious institutions to hit up parishioners for money. After all the point of them isn't to make money but they still have to survive. I've been hit up for funds at Zen Centers and even when I was in Sri Lanka I was invited by monks at various temples to give to the temple. I think where it is a problem would be where the institution becomes focused around money and money is a frequent topic of sermons. IMO the Japanese Zen monastic tradition might have the right idea where monks go out to beg to help support the monastery but when they do it wordlessly and wear a wide brimmed hat pulled down low over their face so they don't see who is donating and the donor doesn't see the monk's face. This way the action is complete compassionate without the monk knowing who is giving or not giving and using that to guilt them into giving and the giver never hears or sees the monk pleading for a donation.
Thanks for the responses. Question 3 was more in response to posts where church actually check W-2s or going the extra mile to make sure you pay the right amount. I'm glad to know churches aren't like this in general. This seems fairly reasonable a structure.
What's more important? Is God more important than your money? Matthew 6:21 (New Living Translation) 21 Wherever your treasure is, there the desires of your heart will also be. ----The focus should be on your reason, as some have said "love for God" or desire to help others, to give... not so you can get. And if doing God's work through financial means is a way you can help... so be it. But I doubt it's a requirement for everyone. Jesus did say the poor would always be with us... he also indicated that to whom much is given, much is required (albeit that does not only mean monetary gain). Does Jesus say to tithe? Sort of... Matthew 23:23 (New Living Translation) 23 “What sorrow awaits you teachers of religious law and you Pharisees. Hypocrites! For you are careful to tithe even the tiniest income from your herb gardens,[a] but you ignore the more important aspects of the law—justice, mercy, and faith. You should tithe, yes, but do not neglect the more important things. ---I would venture a guess that the church in question may be focused more on the money than the meaning, if you catch my drift. I will admit, it is not unreasonable to say that a pastor in charge of large financial responsibilities could have a slight "overload" of responsibility in financially stressful times and make things seem a bit harsh, or even bully folks into giving... or seem that way, especially to a non-regular service goer... That said, we still must give the human in charge of the local church the benefit of the doubt, that he is just a man, still in need of a savior, still in need of the same grace we all need, still in need of "fine tuning" as we all are... Perhaps he is feeling the crush of the current economical situation, as many are... Does it make him any less of a "believer?" Not necessarily... it makes him still 100% true human. A man. Capable of a moment of bad judgement. I have found myself trying to lean on my own understanding many times... something that the Bible specifically tells us not to do... The Bible also provides proof that God will supply the needs of believers in Him... Sometimes we just need reminders of those things. And by "we" I mean pastors, pew sitters, agnostics... everyone. We're all just, after all, humans trying to figure this out. As for whether or not "10%" is too much money??? I'm pretty cool with God "allowing" me to live off the other 90%. Shoot, the "gubment" takes much more per paycheck than 10%... But I give, as I can, because I choose to... and because I know the principle works. Much like the first Scripture I posted... I've heard it said that you can tell if someone trusts God by what the do with the finances concerning Him. My heart, personally, is to try and invest in people, through the ministries of my local church... So I give to it to see it continue. We have a food pantry... we visit in hospitals and jails... we have activities for kids and teens... all beside the "services" on Sunday... and all of them take money to keep the lights on, etc. So I give because I feel those things are needed in my community. If someone comes into a "relationship" with Christ as a result, then we've actually fulfilled Christ's challenge to the church! But I also know that if the church was to shut down, there is automatically a smaller chance in our community for that to happen... at least one less church is around to "offer" Jesus to people. So giving is done from the heart, in it's purest form, so that people may know Jesus. Any other "string attached" to an offering is an unhealthy one IMO. Tithe... for what it's worth... is a "principle" not a "commandment." It's a precedent. Give God 10%, or more, or less... it's another law of "sowing and reaping" thing. Plant small, get small plants. Plant large, get larger return... But by all means, don't plant nothing... that harvest is still no where to be found. Some believe there is no "offering" until the "tithe" is "paid." Yes, and no... but that's a whole other ball of wax. It's still a matter of the heart. And God knows the heart, whether or not someone it "able" versus "willing" to give whatever they can, or should... Our church specifically says right on the website that people need not feel obligated to give just because they visit or attend service. (But of course, at some point common sense tells you that even churches have utility bills.) To answer the OP, I'd say... probably not the norm... and I'd suggest praying for the guy...
I like the Islamic way. 2.5% is your duty, anything above that is your discretion. But more importantly, you should go to every length possible for no one to know that you donated money (or not). Also, you don't give anything unless you are making more than you need (necessities do not include luxuries). So if you're barely scraping by, then obviously you don't donate. Also before ALL of this, if you have the money to donate, it's best to give it to the closest person to you who needs it (family, friends, etc). Passing around a basket in a church - that makes it uncomfortable. It's taking something personal and making it public. I'm not talking about those people who can't/don't donate, but those people who DO and don't want anyone else to know for whatever reason (for example, it belittles other peoples' donations in the eyes of the public). There's got to be a betetr system. Although, I could be misunderstanding it.
It's important, also, to note that we can set a range of money at which all of us can fill our needs. We are all humans and our needs should basically be exactly the same adjusted for inflation, medical needs, etc.. If I have $1m and I donate $100 it's less than if someone has $500 and donates $100. There is a genuine difference. That magic number is: What you give divided by what you have minus what you need. I'm not citing anything or claiming anything, just thinking outloud I guess.
Yeah, I was going to say that. You don't get nearly the information you used to from the collection plate. They still do a collection plate at my church but hardly anything goes in it. People give on the website, or auto-deduct. They have little envelopes to put in the plate, write checks, etc. Now, the only real barometer of giving is the bar graph in the bulletin -- which, of course, has no individual information.
"Caesar's," they replied. Then he said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's." Matthew 22:21
My church, Hosanna Houston on Clay Rd, has stopped passing around the "plates." They now have kiosks set up on both sides of the church and don't mention giving during the service. Since they've started doing that there is actually an increase in giving. I hate to be lectured about tithing. You shouldn't try to guilt people into doing it. Nor should you tempt them by saying what great things God will "do" for you.
Thought it might be fun to once again question the "normalcy" of some church activities... Grace community church plans twin 150/200 foot tall crosses to "mark" houston Anyone else find this utterly stupid? Edit: I think it's been approved or whatever. I'm sure I'll be able to see the southern one from my backyard.
