Is it about us or is it about god? Shouldn't he have an infinite amount of money? He should have the fattest wallet of all time! He wouldn't need coupons! On top of that he'd take money from those who actually really need it? Do the rich either really need it or have a special understanding of god? Pick. Personal religion is fine. In your home. The problem is it's public. Very public. It decides elections. It doesn't pay taxes. You don't need the threat of hell for generosity. If you do it, you aren't transformed. You were that way to begin with. If you need a threat, it isn't authentic. I could waterboard you and make you believe what I wish. Why is interpretation of dogma ok and to be respected when poor men are flying planes into buildings? It's the same thing. Give me evidence to refute this. I can draw whatever conclusion I want from no evidence. Any "evidence" drawn from an ancient desert book can be met with evidence to the contrary from the same source. Why? These thoughts need to be put out of business or at least made honest. Again, it's not what you think but how you think. Feel free to set me straight. Pride is overrated. Truth and freedom are essential. MadMax, you're still a great poster, but I think you're wrong on this.
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I want to preface by saying I'm agnostic/atheist. There are several things I don't understand with regards to tithing. 1. Does the church show everyone their finances so you know where your money is going into? 2. Who decides what the money is going to be spent on? Building maintenance, charity work, salaries, etc. 3. If your spending has to go up for any reason, like spouse getting laid off, children needs money for college, injuries, etc., does that mean you go to Hell for not being able to meet the 10% standard? I never saw any problem with giving money to church. And whenever a friend grabs me to go to a Sunday sermon, I do donate some money. But what I'm seeing on this thread is pretty astonishing. If I were a member of a church where the preacher said that, I'd leave without hearing the rest of it.
1/2. I think it depends on the size of the church but most churches are run by member committees who have input on these kinds of decisions and actually do the reporting to the church body periodically. 3. No! The tithe is an expectation in our church. It allows the church to operate weekly and to reach out to the community local and wider. All that being said, we know there is much abuse of this in the world.
One tenth of my income? No thank you, I rather get season tickets in the lower deck. It would be cheaper and more satisfying.
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If that were true then it makes Jesus a scoundrel, a manipulator and a deceiver; he was the betrayer in that scenario; pretty much destroys his credibility, his message and his life, death and resurrection. Is that mission accomplished?
It's about transformation. I don't worship God because of threat of hell. I'm not generous because of the threat of hell. I don't belong to a church that threatens hell for those who don't tithe. I'm all for your truth and freedom. I have no intention of forcing anything upon you.
Good post. One might wonder than if the "god" part of the equation is necessary for said transformation. Or is finding "god" really just the complete devaluation of self - an infinite compassion?
Justo to clarify.... I am a Christian and I believe I am generous with my time and money. I do not give 10% of my income to any church -- I give directly where I see a need. It is about us -- God doesn't ask for our money he asks for our faithfulness. Earthly blessings are no indication of God's preference -- true Christians know our reward is in heaven. There are many rich empty people and many poor fulfilled people - sometimes poverty is a gift. To say that giving of yourself is not transforming is wrong. When I give I am changed and want to give more. 20 years ago I started helping on Tuesday nights at a cub scout den for kids with special needs. I gave of my time and money to support this -- that experience changed me. Now I have been a counselor at a speical needs camp for the past 20 summers and spend every other weekend at a shelter for kids is crisis -- all this because a young kid decided to give "a little" of his time 20 years ago. I know another older man who helps financially with the center I work at. In the beginning he sent a check every once in a while. Then he started hearing about the good his money was doing and now he buys groceries every week for the center and replaces broken toys or whatever he can. At Christmas we went to his nursing home and "sang" carols to him. To say he's not transformed by his giving is wrong. You are right that we need a little genorosity in our heart to start (to take the first step) but giving a little softens our hearts and often leads to giving alot.
Depends on perspective and faith, I suppose. If you believe God to be who I believe Him to be, it's hard to imagine anything happening without Him. Including the next breath. You see me as a good person, I think. I appreciate that. I think you've told me you're agnostic, so I'm guessing you're thinking that part of that is the influence of religion in my life. Though I resist the word religion like crazy I see you as a good person...and I believe that part in you that craves the same sense of justice for people...and goodwill for people...is from God. It seems to me that if God is who I believe He is, then all of that is true whether you believe it or not. And if he's not real....then we at least had a good conversation. (Which leads me to how I found my church....I got a flier in the mail one time regarding a new church getting started...it had a picture of a doughnut with a halo over it. Beautiful blue sky in the background...heavenly. It read: "If God is real, you'll be glad you came. If not...well at least we had doughnuts." )
A very good person. Not really agnostic. I don't think I fit in any of the traditional categories at the moment. Not from god. It is god. Well, maybe. (very different and enormously long/interesting topic) Doughnuts are definitely from god. mmmmmmmm doughnuts.
Thanks for the kind words. Rhad. <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/HU7v5K4YHoA&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/HU7v5K4YHoA&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object> <object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/BjW63LuqYm8&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/BjW63LuqYm8&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>
The priest is corrupted. Robbing God? More like he's robbing you guys. Don't be surprise if you see him roll around in his Bentley someday.
I was going to say something similar to your first paragraph but you beat me to it. This idea reminds me of a philosophy class I took that questioned God, whether he's infinite in all aspects or not. Or does he even give a flying ---- about us or we are just making ourselves out to be special to him? Don't want to start anything here. Everyone has his own beliefs.
I'm a liberal. So I despise churches who ask for my money but I support the government just taking it and giving it away.
NO NO NO, not at all.....you misread my post. In the book Jesus asks Judas to betray him, and does not tell the others......Jesus asked Judas to turn him in so he could fulfill his mission for his father....and die for our sins...... The book was written around 400AD in coptic but was allegedly taken from much earlier text..... It does not put Jesus in a bad light, it just lifts Judus up more than anything. DD
