Is there such a thing as the separation of church and state?

I don't think that's how it should work. Religious rituals are personal, and should be kept in personal spaces or occasions. You would probably be annoyed if you go to a restaurant, and have to wait for 3 minutes because the waiters are having a private chat about their personal lives. For the same reason, I'd be annoyed if I have to wait for 3 minutes because some religious people at my non-religious meeting want to say a prayer.

Our views on religion are ultimately our own private thoughts, and we have the right to keep our religious views private. However, every time a religious person offers to say a prayer in a non-religious occasion, he's forcing others who do not share his religious view to either reveal their own private thoughts, or suppress them in fear of violating social etiquette. Maybe the religious people have innocent intentions in offering prayers in non-religious occasions, but when they do, they actual violate other people's rights.

It really depends on what you mean by "inconvenience" and what constitutional protections you are talking about. People should be considerate and not violate other people's rights for their own convenience, this is the bottom line.

Like I said, religion is personal thing, so it should be kept in personal or religious spaces. I believe everyone should have the right to believe in whatever they want to believe, but practicing this right should not inconvenience others.

 

But it was men who formed the government? No one can disagree that a Christian spirituality imbued our government from their very beginning. It is only with time that they are being rooted out.

Why not leave them in place to honor and respect the founding traditions?

... here come the reminders that originally minorities and women couldn't vote either....

 

I couldn't disagree more, religion is not the only personal thing that is expressed publically. Even personal opinions are expressed publically. Personal ettiquite, personal prejudice, personal intelligence, personal lust, personal choices.

For instance, are you OK with keeping sexual preferences in some kind of personal separated 'space'?

Doesn't the Bill of Rights specifically address the free expression of religion?

So in the case of religion there is no harm in a public expression.

If there is a Muslim prayer meeting on the front steps of city hall I think that is fine as long as no one blocks entrance or exit.

I think you are over reacting to religious expression.

There is no reason for a prayer to put any suppression or force on anyone else. That is an annoyance not a suppression.

I express my religion often in public just by showing kindness to people who wrong me.

I tell people who ask me about my religion without fear of reprisal.

Stop over-reacting to prayers in public places. They will go away on their own without involving the government.

And if the servers at a restaurant take 3 minutes to talk, wasting your valuable time then they have annoyed you they have not forced their lazy actions upon you.

 

I think I meant that the constitution protects public expressions of religion just like it now offers voting priviledge to all.

Constitutionally the government doesn't need to define my religion.

 

These comments from the "Christians" in this article don't exactly ring with humility or respect....I think that misses the mark far more that what they're complaining of.

 

maybe the school board should rotate the prayer so that at one meeting, member A gets to pray. next meeting member B gets to pray. and so on...

that way everyone gets their say.

or request to have a silent prayer.

 

For the record...I wouldn't hesitate to pray with someone from a different faith background. I believe Jesus is who he said he was...but I'm not going to pretend that I've got a concept as big as God so tied up with a neat bow that I couldn't possibly stoop low enough to pray with someone else who also might not have God tied up with a neat bow.

This is the idolatry of Western Christianity. We've become so concerned with rituals and monuments that we're ignoring the heart of Jesus. We have some expectation that we aren't to suffer when our very model was the one who suffered on the cross. So the focus is less on making this other woman feel respected and more on my moment of prayer. I can pray silently...I can pray with these very people in community moments before, if we like...I can include this woman in prayer and call on the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob....the very God that Christ called on and pointed to.

Things like this frustrate me to no end...because now many of you get a different picture of who I understand Christ to be by the actions of these people...and that draws attention away from the things I want attention directed to. It's a mindset that seeks to be first....and that's opposite of the mindset I understand I am to pursue if I really wish to follow this Jesus guy.

 

If your expression of personal etiquette, prejudice, lust or any other choices that you make cause inconvenience to other people or violate other people's rights, then you are not doing the right thing. Just because someone farts in the elevator, it doesn't mean you should waste other people's time praying to your personal god.

Sexual preference is a personal thing, and I don't care which way people swing. However, there is a clear line on how people can express their sexuality in public. I wouldn't object to two people kissing in public no matter what gender they are, but I will definitely object if two people are having full on sex in the library during normal business hours (unless they are really hot lesbians, but then I wouldn't object to other people's objections).

Yes, but your expression of your religion should not inconvenience me.

In many cases, public worshiping is fine because it doesn't inconvenience other people. However, it should be understood that freedom of religion does not grant anyone the right to practice his religion whenever he wants, wherever he wants or however he wants.

Exactly, you don't want people from other religions to inconvenience you when they exercise their religion, and I also don't want you to inconvenience me when you exercise your religion. It is annoying when you have to ask people who are blocking your path to move aside, it's also annoying when you have to wait for people who are holding up a meeting because of their own private business.

Don't be so defensive.

It's annoying when it suppresses other people's views.

I don't know how to respond to this because I don't know what you actually do.

It's arguable whether it's forcing or not, but the bottom line is that they are not doing the job that they are paid to do by unnecessarily keeping a customer waiting, and this is wrong.

 

Great post.

 

amen!


A lot of professing Christians (I'm one of the worst) get so caught up in semantics, politics, dogma, and application of religion to society that they forget to step back and understand the importance Jesus placed on unbiased kindness and respect of fellow men.

Fear and hatred will cripple everything.

 

I couldn't agree more, (I hope you know) but there is also an overreaction to these issues in my opinion.

If I were a school board president, and I had a genuine sincere concern to pray, I might assume that since prayer was offered for many years there was precedent for acceptance. I could feel comfortable that no one would be offended by that prayer. However once realizing that others were uncomfortable I would look for a more tolerant method.

Realizing the diverse culture in our society I feel it is much more appropriate today to be sensitive to the possibility that someone would be offended and I would communicate my intentions and accomadate my own sincere prayer with a more wise approach.

I don't think Jesus was just abusing the Pharisees because he didnot stoop to pray with them like they prayed. I also don't think he was being arrogant to who were then classified as gentiles when he said don't pray as the heathen pray with their many words.

He was just saying be sincere towards God in prayer. Make it real in your heart and humble and honest. Don't show off your prayers. And don't run over others to pray.

There is an old woman I knew who prayed openly in public often. She was respected, sometimes ridiculed; often made others mad, but that wasn't her intention at all. She often asked people if she could pray,even during public meetings. She was 80 yrs old and feeble so many people just tolerated her short prayers. I think her liberty to pray is protected and I don't think she was abusive or prideful or harmful. She was a simple woman who loved everyone and didn't ever have anything unkind to say about anyone. I know because she prayed so sincerely and so often I am a Christian today.

She was my grandmother.

I don't get upset with prayer bans. Nor do I protest them. I don't even try to change them.

How can you stop someone from praying, they can always pray silently.

But this whole thing just wasn't handled correctly.

It is no representation of Jesus to apologize for a sincere genuine, broken, humble and gracious prayer, even in public.

There just needs to be better communication and of course if it is offensive to your audience then don't pray.

If there was an uproar over someone praying I would stop the public prayer.

If a lady is offended, I would repent to her for not thinking of that first, and then ask her to come up with a solution that respected the sincerity of those who wanted to pray and her own beliefs on public prayer.

I am sure she could come up with a peaceful way of conducting this.

I would trust her to do it.

I am basically trying to balance this view that there is no constitutional protection for those religious adherants who sincerely express themselves publically and lawfully.

I hate the religion of the West where everything is dogmatically this way or the high way.

I despise the hypocrisy of disrespecting this lady.

But everyone wants to jump on the 'establishment' clause like everyone who prays publically is a religious bigot and breaking the law. Well maybe there is a law, I am not sure.


The same people who say they don't care at all if prayer is removed from public venues are usually the same people who react when a muslim, jewish, or hindu ceremony in public is criticized because we are not recognizing the diversity of faith in America.

I think overreactions aren't as wise and well thought out solutions.

From a personal standpoint. The way that situation was handled was un-Christian and mis-represented Jesus.

But I get sad when I'm told at a high school football game that we don't invite ministers to say a short prayer, you know separation of church and state.

I am sincere in my prayer, I only pray if asked and there should be a balance and loving consideration when addressing prayer in public.

But when one person threatens to take the school to court because they pray before the football game, I think we leave the realm of reason, respect and love. I don't want American called a Christian nation. No way, I want to be a Christian. I want to love Jesus and love others the same way he did.

More people probably care less about prayer at a football game than ever before, there was probably a time when it meant something more sincere to most people.

So let it go away on its own. The religious ritual of prayer is an abomination or a detestable thing to God anyway in my opinion.

Nothing worse than hypocrisy.

 

I know your heart, rhester, so I wasn't disagreeing with you at all. Just the responses I read from these people in the article. I agree with your post.

 

That's two different things you are mixing. If I wait too long to go on a green light and you are left waiting behind me I have inconvenienced you, not violated your constiutional rights. Prayer is religous expression and it is written as a protected liberty in the Bill of Rights. That's all.

Now my personal opinion is that if I knew praying would offend you I wouldn't pray in front of you, I would not try to offend you in any way.

Now suppose you came to our church and I knew prayer offended you. I would take you personally aside and explain that we would be praying sincerely at times. And I would try to reasonably work it out with you.

I am really trying to address this whole thing based upon a constitutional protection for religious expression. So consider that context, I am not even trying to explain my own opinion about prayer in public, really I think it is being legally banned mostly and I an not fighting that.

Again the point here is there is no need to have a certain personal private space on prayer as to remove it from public expression. Just reasonable and wise use of said liberty; same for sexual preference no need to single this out and make it a total public stigma, just reasonable and wise use of said liberty.

I know, I know and those who drink at the Rocket games should not inconvenience me, can you see there is just a line that can be crossed without overreacting.

If someone is drinking at the game as long as they are not constantly shouting profanities in my children's ears and hitting on my wife I'm cool.

We can all have more patience with so called inconveniences.

I agree, there should be some decency and common sense, it is not carte blanche to do whatever you want recklessly or arrogantly or rudely.

Other religions do not inconvenience me at all. period end of story- in fact they are a blessing to me.

OK- thanks

suppress other people's views,

look if someone else is an arrogant snob and shows it in public it doesn't make you an arrogant snob.

If someone wants to pray in public it doesn't make you religious. You don't like it , but you are not being forced or suppressed.

This is much ado about nothing. Those so called Christians just mishandled this lady's complaints they were arrogant and rude to her. I already stated that.

Good point, i better get back to work and do the job i am getting paid to do today.

 

I know, I am always frustrated when I read about Christians acting so sanctimonious (sp) and being so alarmed that someone might be offended by prayer- what infidels, right?

I just had some time this morning to post, and thought I would blabber about the Separation Clause.

Not like that's heavy on my mind.

I'm just arguing at will this morning.

You are a blessing, thanks for the help you have given me.

 

likewise

 

The quote from Matthew very clearly applies to situations such as the ones described in the article. They insisted on pushing their prayer on the committee even after they knew that it was offending people. They even dismissed out of hand the option of having a moment of silence instead.

Umm... Daniel is in the Hebrew Bible, so I would guess that the Matthew passage preempts that. I'd still be interested in a chapter/verse citation so I can examine your claim.

I actually do think prayer is something to be ashamed of, but that's another issue.

Because as we grow as humans and as a nation, we learn that we don't need silly superstitions to prop up our moral systems anymore. The founding fathers certainly understood this.

I think you're conflating two distinct concepts here (and other places in this thread: voluntary religious expression in a public space is constitutionally protected, but you cross the line when you lead a prayer from a position of authority over a public body. If you want to preach to me about whatever deity or deities you believe in, don't do it on the school's time. That form of expression is, and should be illegal.

 

Yes, I can see that, in our society today we just can't assume that these things are OK, if there is a really sincere desire to pray and it is not just formality or some kind of 'I don't care what anyone thinks' mentality, then there should be ways of doing this without making a big issue.

If a school leader starts a meeting with prayer then just be sensitive to others and communicate it something like this-

"We have traditionally started our school meetings with prayer, however we realize this is not comfortable to everyone so we will have our prayer 5 minutes prior to the opening of official business and we certainly won't delay the scheduled start of the meeting. Please feel free to skip the opening prayer."

There, the Christian prayer was acceptable to many so those that were sincere joined for a moment of prayer beforehand and anyone else could come and be made to feel equal and accepted at the meeting.

No need to discriminate whether someone prays or not.

It's not like God is up there saying- you better pray before you have your meeting.

I am talking about a humble sincere asking for god's help out of a pure heart.

 

The problem is, even this sort of "unofficial" (though I would argue it is de facto official) prayer opens the door for discrimination by actively excluding members of the community from a public activity. Take care of your religious business before you get up to the podium.