Just to provide one counter to this. My parents remained married despite not being happy for 10 years just so they could raise me and get me off to college. The result, unfortunately, was their complete unhappiness and a lot of confusion for me. It's great that your family loved each other so much and you had such great experiences. But, "real family" is a loaded concept. We were a real family by design, but a total disaster in reality. I often think that, no matter what the logistical hardships, it would've been better for all of us had my parents divorced and just been honest about things with me. Plus, both sides of my family (mother and father) are absolutely bat**** crazy. My extended families are really difficult and uncomfortable to be around. As George Burns once said, "It's wonderful to have a loving, caring, closeknit family...in another city."
That's not really a counter to the point. This just reinforces the point of that song "love and marriage", you can't have one without the other. I'm sure I would've had a very confused and unhappy childhood if my parents didn't love each other the way they do. I wouldn't call that a "real" family ... family isn't merely defined by father, mother and kids living in the same house. It's so much more than that. It pains me when I hear stories like that. It's just not fair to the kids. Most people don't realize the #1 reason why their marriages fail is selfishness. You can't rush off into marriage just because of how "I" feel about this person or what "I" am going to get out of it. It's not even just about both of you, it's also about the kids too. I broke up with my last girlfriend because I just couldn't see how we could raise children together in a healthy home. Marriages fail mostly because they start for all the wrong reasons.
What made you get with her in the first place then? If you see what I'm saying, you can understand why I say you can think you've found the perfect person and marry them yet still end up in a divorce. Everybody thinks they have all the answers - the fact is it's a gamble because you never truly know what the other person is thinking, feeling, or how "they are" until you've been with them for a while... in marriage. I know I sound cynical, but I'm not trying to be. My parents have been married forever and they'll never divorce. They absolutely love each other - they'll fight and argue, but divorce was never an option. They never ever put materialistic needs like gifts, vacations, etc. high on their priority. For them it's religion and family, and that's it. lol.
Just had dinner (a company function) with a few apparently happy couples in their 30s, 40s, 50s, and 70s. I'm also happy to that some of you and some of your parents have happy marriages. The question is how can you really tell which marriages are the good ones and which are doomed for failure. I presume most of the 55 or 60% of the couples who get divorced thought they loved each other before getting married and didn't go into the marriage thinking they were gonna get divorced later. Many of these couples also probably had been together and lived together for a long while before tying the knot, too. And consequences of a divorce is just flat out devastating. It's a huge factor when one considers heading into a contractual relationship that has a good chance of ending up in it.
Ironically, I'm perusing MSN and come across this... this is what they call the fine line between tragedy and comedy : http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/09/17/chadwick.divorce.ap/index.html?section=cnn_us
Yeah, but life is a risk. Starting a business, having a child, eating the wrong foods, drinking too much, driving too fast. There are HUGE risks in every walk of life. I was married and it ended in divorce, but I don't regret my choice. Some of my favorite memories of my adult life came from my time with my wife. Regardless of the "contractual issues" (which, by the way, were not an issue for us as I came out of the relationship better than when I went in as did she), it was worth it for me and I know lots of people who feel the same way even though the marriage ended. As JeopardE pointed out, the vast majority of us would not exist without people who decided to get married and have us.
I think there are people like this. I know a few people so in love with the idea of marriage, the person they were marrying was hardly part of the equation. People do all sorts of things for the wrong reasons, so there's no reason to believe marriage would be any different. I got married at 18 years-old, mostly because we had a child in high school. The marriage was pretty well doomed to failure from the get-go, but we tried our hardest and made it last longer than it probably had any right to (roughly four years). The divorce was emotionally very difficult, but it wasn't all that difficult financially. I liked being married a great deal, even that young. But we just weren't the right people for each other. I think we knew that at the time we got married, but we did what we thought was right. But I don't know how anyone who marries that young makes it. I look at my son, who is now 17, and see the choices he makes and the person he is, and I just can't imagine him being in a place where marriage would be the right option. And when I was 18, I was pretty much the same (only taller). So, I certainly wouldn't recommend getting married at such a young age, when you're still trying to discover who you are and all of that, and when your world tends to change a whole lot in a relatively short time. I got married again earlier this year (at age 34. My bride was 30). No child together to push us toward marriage, just a desire to be together. We actually dated for several years and lived together for about a year before getting married. We're only six months in, but it really feels right.... at least until I finally convince Winona Ryder that we're made for each other.
When I started reading this thread I was at generally neutral towards the institution of marriage but now that I've read the whole thing I'm feeling more against it. I'm glad for Mad Max, Deckard, JeopardE and the rest who have happy marriages but the more I read the more it seems like a crap shoot. All the stuff that y'all say about being mature coming into a marriage, having love, and willing to self sacrifice all sound great in principle but that's like saying that in the stock market you should buy low and sell high. How do you know that that warm gooey feeling you have with your sweety isn't just lust that's going to wear off once you or they start losing hair, getting paunchy and wrinkly? Its easy to say that you're going to sacrifice to keep your relationship going but I've seen so many marriages fall apart because of petty things. Its true that there are no major, or minor, undertakings in life that doesn't have some level of risks but given the amount of emotional and financial pain that I've seen come out of many divorces why risk something like that? I don't think marriage is an institution that should be done away with socially but I'm leaning more and more that it shouldn't be legislated. Not just deciding who can be married to whom but having it as a legal institution at all. Why should the government step in and enforce obligations to a defunct emotional relationship? Certainly paternal and maternal legal obligations should be enforced in regards to children but that's a somewhat different issue since the parent of a child out of wedlock will still have legal obligations. Barring doing away with legal marriage I certainly don't think that divorce should be made more difficult. I'm in a similar situation to DoD and came close to marrying someone who I'd been dating for about six years. I didn't do it and don't regret it. We're still friends even though she plans on marrying someone else. I figure I probably will get married not out of the idea that I want to be married but out of the idea that I want children, don't want to grow old alone and that the person that I would want to do that with will probably want to get married and to cash in on the great tax and health insurance benefits.
I don't know if doing away with the legal institution of marriage solves the financial problems you speak of. Even simple stuff is going to potentially create issues in any split. I mean, my wife and I own a house. Even if we weren't married, we'd still own a house together. If we split up, what happens to the house? And how do we solve that without the government/lawyers involved other than simply agreeing between ourselves (which is actually something married people could do now if they wanted to). What about all the other stuff we accumulated. Just since our marriage, we've purchased a new car and new furniture. What happens to it if we split up? Would it be any easier to split it up if we weren't married? We're bound by contract if not by marriage, and that carries an obligation with it and the government gets involved in all sorts of contract disputes. Marriage likely wouldn't be any different even if "marriage" as a legal institution were done away with. My twice divorced father lost more in business partnership disputes/dissolutions than he did in both of his divorces combined. He wasn't married to his business partners, but splitting up the business was just as contentious (if not moreso) than any divorce I've ever seen.
You raise excellent points and IMO instead of having a government legislated institution of marriage it should be left up to contract law so that every couple that wants to be married essentially write up a pre-nup regarding the disposition of joint property.
Every time marriage is a topic amongst females and myself, I mention getting a pre-nup. here's the reaction: all of them are naive as believe love is forever, that there's no chance that when they find the right man, nothing will change. their typical response is, "good luck finding a woman who will agree to one." life isn't a fairy tale and you're not always gonna live "happily ever after."
No explanations required for me, DoD. When I look around at those friends of mine who married, it's easy to see that it appears to be a crap shoot. Why our own turned out as it did may be as much luck as anything else. Certainly, it's nothing I've done that's special. I don't know... we share a lot of interests. That must have a lot to do with it. We both love politics and discussing politics. It doesn't hurt that she's deeply involved in state government, and we end up talking about that a lot. We both love to travel. We both love sex, and it's very, very good between us. Remember, we were together a very, very long time before we had kids, and seriously thought about blowing the whole idea of children off. Everyone is different, and every successful marraige is based, in my opinion, on reasons unique to that couple and their shared experiences with each other. I would be the last person to tell everyone to run out and get married. It isn't for everyone. If it were, you wouldn't see a divorce rate as high as it is. Many, many marraiges were clearly mistakes, and many hold together strictly for the children. I've seen plenty like that and often, in my opinion, it's a mistake. We could have easily spent all those years together as a couple, and not have married. I could see that. As long as we've been together makes for a rather astonishing number, I have to admit, but I'm not sure the number should have any meaning beyond what it means to us... an excuse to get a cabin outside of Fredericksburg once a year that we love, get my Mom to come up and watch the kids, and enjoy ourselves for a few days the way we used to, before children entered the picture.
...and the consequences of NOT getting married, financially, can also be devastating. 1. The amount of $ you can save when you've reduced your housing expenses by 1/2 and increased your household income 2x is incredible. 2. Should Social Security and Pensions prove to be inadequate for retirement, how do you plan to save enough $ over a lifetime on a single income? 3. Also consider if you get hurt and are unable to work for a period of time, who will take care of you if you are not married. Again, another financial train wreck waiting to happen. 4. Single people tend to rent more often (often because they can't save up enough money for a downpayment) than married couples. Owning a house is the single biggest investment by which Americans gain true wealth through appreciation. So if you are single and renting, you are finacially falling behind. As long as you don't get divorced, it is easily the biggest NO-BRAINER you can do from a financial stability perspective. ...assuming you don't get divorced. So in summary, it is a risk IF you get married. But it is also risky, in a difference sense, if you DON'T.
I'm married, and I love my wife, and I have no intention of getting divorced (I guess I'm just one of the lucky half). However, I readily admit that there are many STRONG reasons not to get married. Putting aside the legal ramifications, monogomous marriage is, after all, a relatively recent invention in human history. If nothing else, the biology of mammals tends to lend itself toward the male of the species coupling with multiple females. Animals don't generally "marry", so why should the human animal be any different? I get a bit annoyed with people who bemoan the rising divorce rate. They look fondly back on the days when marriages lasted. Never mind that cheating husbands were not only tolerated but commonplace, women were subjective to their husbands and required to do whatever he said (including in the bedroom), husbands could beat up their wives with little to no reprecussions, etc. "The good old days weren't always good."
Agreed...Just look what Jeff wrote...Stayed unhappily ever after...That is why I got divorced as I wanted to be happy...However, there are consequences, especially if you have kids... Overall, if you think you'll get sex all the time, you'll have food on the table when you get home and that you never have to change a dirty diaper, then marriage is not for you...It's more of a team effort where everyone knows there place and can tolerate the good and the bad...I can see myself getting married again with the right person, but I definitely know a lot more now than I did back then...
How would you guys feel if you were the one's that had to sign the pre-nup? Say you married a woman who made more money than you and wanted to protect herself. Would you guys have an issue with it? I actually did that in my marriage and it did protect her from some financial fallout that is part of the 50/50 division of assets we have in Texas (which is why a pre-nup is not necessary if you are going in with the same amount of money, assets, etc). I think that women who think love are forever and there is no need for a pre-nup are as wrong as guys who believe love isn't forever and a pre-nup is absolutely essential for your financial protection when getting married. Both views are skewed by the furthest extreme of belief in love and marriage. In reality, it's usually somewhere in between.
