Crash, the point you are failing to see, and the one hp is trying to get across, is that truly, Francis has a wide assortment of talents, and no one disputes that, but there are guards who play better for the TEAM than francis currently does, and that's where he has to improve. As a player, he is very complete, but as a PG, at running an offense and also, at defending his man, Francis still has plenty of room to grow. For instance, we all know Francis smokes Kidd's ass from here to eternity ever time they meet, but that doesn't change the fact that Kidd simply is better than Francis as far as running a team goes. Just like Payton is better at shutting his man down. We are not talking playground basketball here. Francis still has a lot of room for improvement, and i see him as being the next Payton and maybe even surpassing him, but he is NEVER going to be the ball handler and ball distributor that Kidd or Stockton are unless he has a MAJOR breakout somewhere down the line. I love the kid, but that doesn't make him the best in the league at his position by any means. Give it time, he'll get there. (Though baron Davis and Andre Miller should provide some entertaining competition.) ------------------ "Dream another dream, this dream is over... Dream another dream, this dream is over... Dream another dream..." - from the Van Halen song, "The Dream is Over" (Thank you, Freak). Fitting, isn´t it? [This message has been edited by Thanos (edited January 27, 2001).]
Please don't say that Payton is better for his team. I live in Seattle and get to watch a lot of games, and hear a lot of news. Payton is nothing more than a cancer on the Sonics. Yes he puts up nice stats. Yes he has been known to take over games. That doesn't change the fact that is is selfish, and when they lose, he blames everybody on the team but himself. We are talking about a guy who takes 25 shots a game, despite having players like Lewis, Ewing, Baker, Patterson and Barry around him. All these guys could be much more effective if he would try to get them involved more, but he thinks they are all inept. I think Jason Kidd is one of the most overrated players in history. He also puts up nice stats, and is eexperienced with the fast break, but Phoenix never improves. They are always a middle of the pack team. Every single year, it never fails. His inability to score is a big problem. Throughout all this, I can't really fairly say that Francis is the best PG either, because the Rocket's record is crap. He has all the tools, though. If you look at positive impact on the team, Steve is the best. He is easily the most complete guard. If you look at pure stats, Payton is the best. ------------------ "Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning how to put food on their family while being put to death."
If you think that Kidd or Stockton have better handles than Steve you're crazy! They are protective ball handlers. Never doing crossovers or anything risky with the ball, and you think that makes them better ballhandlers? They are not put in the same situations as Steve. They are not forced to take their man off the DRIBBLE like him. HP, Francis will learn to be more careful with the ball which will cut down his TO's, so stop making such a big deal out of the fact that you think his dribbling is too dangerous.By the way, his TO numbers aren't that bad.Alot of you people need to stop looking at Steve as a POINT GUARD,and start looking at him as a basketball PLAYER. Some of you criticize him for not running the offense as well as other point guards, but if you think that then it tells me you dont see how UNIQUE the rockets offense is, and that he is in fact doing a damn good job of running it. ------------------ [This message has been edited by tacoma park legend (edited January 27, 2001).]
Look ZRB, you are entitled to your opinion, but at this point their carrers, both ewing and baker are completly useless, barry has never amounted to nothing (remember when krause got HIM to be the first option in chi-town after jordan's retirement? what a laugh) Patterson is far from being the greatest of offensive threats, leaving only Rashard as a capable scoring option. So cut the crap. Payton is the man as far as the PG position goes in the NBA. Heck,Barkley said more than once he was the best player in the entire NBA. It has GOT to be frustrating being surrounded mediocre talent like he has been the last couple of years. Not that his behavior is excusable, mind you. tacoma: will youguys chill off? NO ONE is bashing the kid! he just isn't as good as some of you make him out to be! not yet! and i'm not saying i prefer a PURE PG like kidd or stockton, i'm saying that Francis will eventually eclipse Payton who is in my mind the BEST pg in the game! But it will take time! He isn't thre yet! You guys are letting your love for the kid cloud your judgement! ------------------ "Dream another dream, this dream is over... Dream another dream, this dream is over... Dream another dream..." - from the Van Halen song, "The Dream is Over" (Thank you, Freak). Fitting, isn´t it? [This message has been edited by Thanos (edited January 27, 2001).]
How many Sonic games have you watched? I have watched plenty, and I know that Ewing, Baker and even Patterson are all quite capable of scoring. Especially when their point guard tries to get them involved. ------------------ "Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning how to put food on their family while being put to death."
ZRB, i have watched enough to know that Baker and Ewing drag themselves on the court. At least in the 2 or 3 games i saw this season. [This message has been edited by Thanos (edited January 27, 2001).] [This message has been edited by Thanos (edited January 27, 2001).]
Please read my posts carefully. I think I admitted even in my first post the Steve was not the best yet. I also admitted that Jason does a better job of running his offense. I thought I made it clear that Steve still needs to polish his game...including his ball handling and decision making skills. Steve is just in his second year as a point guard...period. Kidd and the rest have been doing it much longer. My point has nothing to do with who is the best! Only who has more to offer. Who does more in the form of rebounding, scoring, assists, steals, blocked shots, Free Throws, drawing fouls and intangebles such as work ethic, being a team player, not causing distractions, fire and passion for the game and aggresiveness. Let me make it clear I do not think Steve is the best yet. But I do think he will be. I think he has more potential than Payton or Kidd with out all the distractions and bad attitude with more hops. ------------------
Thanos, I never said I thought Francis ran the offense better than Kidd, I just think he's doing a better job than some are giving him credit for. Francis may not be better than Kidd or Payton at this point, he's getting there, but he's doing just as much as either of them with the talent he's surrounded with. ------------------
Is Steve the best point guard? Maybe, maybe no. What I do know is that it is fair and reasonably pretentious in claiming Steve is the most complete guard in the NBA. ------------------ Sometimes you gotta do the next best thing!
In business, statistics don't lie. Well, an application of this thought is illustrated as follows: I did some highly intensive research which compiled some 12.3 hours of analytical quantitative as well as qualitative data and I must say the results positively correlated to support the basis of my intuitive reasoning. I took 9 key categories such as: PPG, FG%, 3 pt.%, ASST., Stl., blk.,(yes, I said Blocks demmit - after all it is a part of defense,.. right ) T.O., FT%, and RPG. Now, would you believe that in a side by side comparison of data with the express written permission from NBA.com..it is concluded that Steve Francis has more categories in his favor than the likes of Kobe, Iverson, Stockton, Van Excel, Miller, Brandon, and Payton among many, many others. Now, some of you may say O.K. ROXRAN, How bout T.O. ratio, or "how he makes teammates better" or "how pretty he dribbles" or other self-manifested intangibles or yadda, yadda, yadda. Well my first inclination is to pimp slap you from here to the Super bowl, but that's another story.. Let's stick with the facts Ma'am. Just the facts. And what the facts says is that Steve Francis is statistically and categorically THE MOST COMPLETE GUARD IN THE NBA RIGHT HERE, RIGHT NOW!!..IN HOUSTON, TEXAS, BANG, BANG!! ------------------ Sometimes you gotta do the next best thing!
I came into the league as a high-energy player that was truly unselfish. I love the assist as much as shooting the rock. I am a great rebounder for a guard and lightning quick. Also, I finished as co-rookie of the year. I teamed with another young guard that made up one of the most exciting and potent backcourts in the league. Who am I? That could be Jason Kidd or Steve Francis. Their bios are so similar it's scary. Here are the stats from their first two years. Jason Kidd C A R E E R A V E R A G E S REBOUNDS YEAR TEAM G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OF DF TOT APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG 94-95 Dal 79 79 33.8 .385 .272 .698 1.9 3.5 5.4 7.7 1.91 0.30 3.2 1.8 11.7 95-96 Dal 81 81 37.5 .381 .336 .692 2.5 4.3 6.8 9.7 2.16 0.32 4.0 1.9 16.6 Steve Francis C A R E E R A V E R A G E S REBOUNDS YEAR TEAM G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OF DF TOT APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG 99-00 Hou 77 77 36.1 .445 .345 .786 2.0 3.3 5.3 6.6 1.53 0.38 4.0 3.0 18.0 00-01 Hou 41 41 39.9 .449 .401 .876 2.5 4.2 6.7 6.4 1.90 0.51 3.3 3.4 19.1 Jason Kidd came into the league under a cloud of controversy. He was leaving college early and many people were skeptical on his maturity after the report of wrecking his car and leaving the scene of the accident. Him and Jim Jackson became best friends and made up one of the best young duos in the game. The Mavs, won 30 + games that year and the whole town was excited about the future. The next year however Jason Kidd and Jim Jackson would split the team with their feud over Toni Braxton. Jason Kidd began accusing Jackson of not giving 100% and using an ankle injury from the previous year as an excuse. The Mavs had spent a ton of money trying to promote the three J’s Jason, Jamal and Jim. That obviously cost the Mavs a ton of wasted money. The team never recovered and a year later all three players were traded. The Kidd, Jackson controversy set that organization back a few more years. Now a few years later in Phoenix and Kidd is in another controversy. The man is a wife beater. His absence from the team had a direct effect on their record. He is a horrible ambassador for his team and the league. He has spawned such quotes as “that’s what separates us from the tax payers”, somebody please tell me what the hell that means. Kidd just brings too much baggage with him and causes too many distractions. Steve’s lone controversy since he has been in the league was the Vancouver controversy. He has never been a distraction to his team. Heypee said that Steve turns his ball over on the dribble too much not like Stockton, Magic, Isiah, Payton and Kidd. There is no doubt that Steve needs to work on that but come on, you know the NBA has been trying to stop that the last couple of years. And you know as well as I that every time Magic, Isiah, Jordan and even Dr. J touched the ball they carried it and finished all plays off by traveling. It was just not called as tightly until the last couple of years. Steve and Kidd turnovers are almost identical in the first couple of years, the difference is that Steve improved while Kidd digressed. After watching Kidd almost every night for 2 and ½ years I cringed every time he shot the ball. There were times that he shot Dallas out of the game, particularly in his second year. Of course the offense runs more smoothly through Kidd than Francis, he has been a Point Guard his whole life. Steve just became a Point Guard last year. But in a couple of years when the Point Guard position is second nature to him, the NBA had better watch out. I still think that Payton is the best point guard in the game for now. But his me first attitude has created a divisive atmosphere on the Sonics. Same thing can be said of Kobe. I just don’t see that as being part of Steve’s personality. And I also think he will learn how to take over a game in crunch time. His fourth quarter performance against Sacramento the last time we played them was nothing short of spectacular. I just don’t see any other guard in the game that does as many different things as well as Steve. ------------------ [This message has been edited by crash5179 (edited January 27, 2001).] [This message has been edited by crash5179 (edited January 27, 2001).] [This message has been edited by crash5179 (edited January 27, 2001).]
Steve is already better than Kidd, and nearly all the other guards in the NBA. My take on the whole Kobe thing is that Kobe has loads and loads of potential but he is a very very selfish player. Maybe it is because he is so young but if Stevie through up thirty shots a game he could probably surpass that point totals of Kobe but Steve does what most of the youngsters in the NBA don't do and that is be a team player. I am one who thinks Kobe will always lack the discipline that you are supposed to learn in college. In college the coach is free to order the pleyers around in the pros the players are free to boss the coach around. As far as Payton goes I would say the glove is better but the gap is closing fast. Steve is probably a better offensive player as far as overall skills go. Although Payton always seems to drive you wild on the offensive side of the court. Payton flops alot which really drives me nuts. On the defensive side we can say Payton is better. Steve has improved somewhat but no way is he at Glove level. Steve shows the desire to improve and the work ethic to go with it that will get him close to or even possibly exceed Glove level. Payton has the bad attitude which is never good. As far as Francis goes I think in a year or two he will be the best guard in the NBA. He is easily deserving of all star status this year and if he does not get it it will be ashame. It is hard to believe that Steve can already be this good after two years at a position he had never played in his life. I think I now know why Rudy said that Stevie Franchise could be the best to ever play the point guard position. ------------------
I have to agree with you guys, Steve does so much out there and it's only his second year, also, yes, he should make the all-star squad, and yes, he's the most "complete" guard in the game.. peace ------------------ against all odds
Like RocketSiv said,Kobe has so much talent...even though he does play the three too..The Lakers are having problems right now,but last year he elevated his level of play at times in their run.Reminded me of another guy at times...He's just in a different situation and once they get it sorted out,he should be in a class where it doesn't take time to call the roll.Sooooo young too! Steve has such raw ability and as previously stated is trying to learn the most difficult position on the court.If you put him at the 2,he could easily put up numbers like Iverson,but we're about winning,and I like to see what Rudy is doing.The kid will have a better overrall grasp for the game.Some of that is innate(like Magic)..I don't think he has this kind of court sense.Who does?..Stockton approached it and was a coach onthe floor,but not on that same level...that's a really rare quality.Stevie needs to work on that D as he is already doing..he'll get there Iverson brings a ton and is a work in progress.He's scarily good and seems to be reigning in his game,though right now,on that team he does what he a has to do...a jack by necessity(and nature) and even though he has already improved,more games and another addition will make him even better. Gary Payton is the total package.The glove,in addition to being that defensive monster,can do everything.He has slipped a little,but he still is at the top of the heap as far as point guards.This, Hall of Famer to be,is among the top 3 to ever play the position.His j has always been a bit streaky,but he improved it over the years.Those drives to the hoop that break the D for layups or create for others has been a relentless feature for years.You know, he finishes too,just not with dunks most of the time...great player Stockton's on his last legs and I have respect for his game, but he's done.(hate him and the Jazz,so that's hard to say) Kidd is the hustle guy who sees the floor faster than anyone.While he is said to be overrated(and I understand why),if he could stay healthy,and have a decent supporting cast(including a big man)Jason might not be thought of that way... Marbury puts up great stats,but isn't about winning. Ray Allen ,while not being a point guard would get alot of votes from me as being in the top tier of that best all around guard category.He can do it all. Now,Stevie,might not always be a 1,but whatever he is ,he is on his way to rareified air...He probably stays at point,but you never know. Anyway,I give all these guys their props..... but,right now my list would be Kobe Ray Gary Steve Iverson..even when you factor in his rebounding Kidd That's a list that you could flip flop around in my mind to whatever you like. It's a testament to Gary and Steve,in that they play the point. BTW,I love Miller's game,sort of like Kidd,but will be better. As for TB,he gets the most out of his talent,and it's good to see him finally getting attention,since he left Cleveland. ------------------ [This message has been edited by hardwood (edited January 29, 2001).]
To be a complete player don't you have to play defense? No offense but Steve has all the skills to be the best, but like most Rookies his defense is not even close to Payton and is also behind Kidd and Iverson, who is at least playing hard on the defensive side of the ball this year. I still think the best overall guard is Kidd just because he rebounds and gets assists with Payton a very close second. Francis has all the skills, but lot of people have unfulfilled potential who never learned to be champions. For a good example see Dominique Wilkins. All the skills yet he never learned to play on a team or to play defense.
Sorry guys, but I think Kobe is lightyears ahead of Francis. Even though I'm a huge Francis fan, I accept that Steve at his prime will never be as good as Kobe at his prime. Sorry, Kobe and Francis are almost the same age, and Kobe is way better. if Kobe wanted to average 6 assists and 6 rebounds and 19ppg, he'd do it in a heartbeat. Francis is going for rebounds, Kobe has Shaq. NO, francis can't do what Kobe's doing if he were on the Lakers. ------------------
