Well sonuva gun.... I guess they roll out these programs to remind each new generation that the gov don't **** around.
Fair enough. I think most people support the monitoring of terrorist activities as long as it is not done in a way that is completely unchecked. The government has the right to monitor communications with a warrant. The process of obtaining a warrant is what prevents the government from spying on your personal life for no apparent reason. The following is from MSNBC NEW YORK - President Bush refused to say whether the National Security Agency eavesdropped without warrants on people inside the United States but leaders of Congress condemned the practice on Friday and promised to look into what the administration has done. “There is no doubt that this is inappropriate,” said Sen. Arlen Specter, R-Pa., chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee. He said there would be hearings early next year and that they would have “a very, very high priority.” He wasn’t alone in reacting harshly to the report. Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., said the story, first reported in Friday’s New York Times, was troubling.
just saw this, and i am outraged. i demand a special counsel be appointed to investigate who leaked this classified information. the times says it is the arbiter of what may or may not be detrimental to national security. personally, i am not comfortable with that. i say, out of the kerfuffle, into the fire.
Well, putting aside the ACLU debate for a moment, Basso does bring up an inteersting point. This type of cloak-and-dagger monitoring must be some of the most f*king classified work being done in our intelligence community. What type of operative would leak this to the press? Is this the CIA's way of getting back at Bush for making them look bad for the Iraq war?
Is this really a suprise to anybody? Does anybody remember that the senate had to block funding for John Poindexter's TIA (Total Information Awareness) mega-database creation program? Anyway, you can get one stop shopping for all your freaky paranoid government spying needs at http://www.cryptome.org. Their coverage of this issue at: http://cryptome.org/nsa-ussid18.htm Also be sure to check the latest on - Tempest, where the government reconstructs what's on your monitor from flux in cables miles away using a technique known as van Eck phreaking: http://www.eskimo.com/~joelm/tempest.html Echelon, where the US government gets other countries to spy on US phone calls (flagging you for saying such subversive key phrases as "Amnesty International" or "Greenpeace") to circumvent privacy issues, and reciprocates in kind: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON And there are also myriad other data collection programs going on like Carnivore and Omnivore, and probably 100+ other 'spy on Americans' programs that nobody has ever heard of. These people have been doing this since the technology became available in the 60's. The advent of large-scale processing power required for computer data analysis and large volume computer storage media has made it easier to capture and analyze data and they've gone wild. The only limitations that even seem to be considered are what they can get away with and what the technology will do.
also, given that the times apparently held this report for a year, is it just a coincidence this report appeared the same day the patriot act renewal was voted on?
Actually I agree. The timing is interesting. It's already being reported that it was one of the reasons for today's vote.
If it was held for a year you think it would have had an affect on the presidential elections? Coincidence? If was released on the day that probably determined the fate of parts of the patriot act. Coincidence? Neither of these is. Why?, I don't know but I'll bet there was some back door dealings and some hard feelings.
Basso, so it is ok for the president to order spying on his political opponents? Just trust him? Basso, so it is ok for the news media to report on this type of spying on opponents by the President as long as they do it right away? Basso, so if the media doesn't do it right away, then they should never report it? I think you are letting your loyalty to Bush or some sort of fixation with a Vietnam Syndrome or something cloud your judgement. I assume you were raised with the American concept of freedom from government oppresion? This is worse than Watergate. When Nixon was caught spying on domestic enemies who opposed the Vietnam War, he and the GOP was embarassed , now they are what is the deal;he is the President? Basso, will you feel different if a liberal president started spying on you for advocating for your favorite conservative cause?
This is an impeachable offense. There is a law against this type of spying. Bush knowinglly ordered the spying against the law. He is impeachable. Case closed Doesn't matter if Bush or his loyal followers believe it was necessary to defend against Sadam's wmd or whatever.
John Kerry was right about impeachment. No President should be allowed to circumvent the checks and balances, and usurp power like that. For him to admit that he authorized spying and eavesdropping on American Citizens without going through the courts is unexcusable. He should be impeached and he shouldn't be allowed to finish his term.
This is correct. But it won't matter. No one got impeached for putting thousands of japanese americans in internment camps either... The cycle continues.
Bush Vows to Continue Secret Eavesdropping Sat Dec 17, 2005 at 09:32:12 AM PDT In his radio address this morning, Bush acknowledged authorizing warrantless eavesdropping on U.S. citizens more than a dozen times - and he vowed to continue to do so. This appears to me to be a true "line in the sand" moment for America, with a president openly and defiantly declaring himself ready to continue a program that legal scholars, members of Congress and - according to the Friday New York Times article that started this all - several NSA analysts themselves believe to be unconstitutional. There appears to be no acknowledgement whatsoever of concerns voiced by critics of the program. There is the feeling in the air about all this - and perhaps it's just me - that we are being forced to a constitutional crisis by a president who no longer believes he needs to wear a mask to court public opinion. This reeks of raw will and power. Lest we forget: I sincerely hope America is up to the challenges I sense ahead. Or let's hope I'm reading this wrong.
It gets even better ... Bush: Eavesdropping Helps Save U.S. Lives By JENNIFER LOVEN, Associated Press Writer WASHINGTON - Facing angry criticism and challenges to his authority in Congress, President Bush on Saturday unapologetically defended his administration's right to conduct secret post-Sept. 11 spying in the U.S. as "critical to saving American lives." One Democrat said Bush was acting more like a king than a democratically elected leader. Bush's willingness to publicly acknowledge some of the government's most classified activities was a stunning development for a president known to dislike disclosure of even the most mundane inner workings of his White House. Since October 2001, the super-secret National Security Agency has monitored, without court-approved warrants, the international phone calls and e-mails of people inside the United States. News of the program comes at a particularly damaging and delicate time. Already, the Bush administration is under fire for allegedly operating secret prisons in Eastern Europe and shipping suspected terrorists to other countries for harsh interrogations. The NSA program's existence surfaced as the administration and its GOP allies on Capitol Hill were fighting to save the expiring provisions of the USA Patriot Act, the domestic anti-terrorism law enacted after the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. In a stinging failure to Bush, Democrats and a few Republicans who say this law gives so much latitude to law enforcement officials that it threatens Americans' constitutional liberties succeeded Friday in stalling its renewal. So Bush scrapped the version of his weekly radio address that he had already taped — on the recent elections in Iraq — and delivered a live speech from the White House's Roosevelt Room on the Patriot Act and the NSA program. The gravity with which the White House regarded the situation was evident by the presence in the West Wing on a normally quiet Saturday of many of Bush's closest aides. Often appearing angry in his eight-minute address, the president lashed out at the senators who blocked the Patriot Act's renewal, branding them as irresponsible. He also made clear that he has no intention of halting his authorizations of the NSA's monitoring activities and said the public disclosure of the spy operation endangered Americans. Bush said his authority to approve what he called a "vital tool in our war against the terrorists" came from his constitutional powers as commander in chief. He said that he has personally signed off on reauthorizations more than 30 times since the Sept. 11 attacks. "The American people expect me to do everything in my power under our laws and Constitution to protect them and their civil liberties," Bush said. "And that is exactly what I will continue to do, so long as I'm the president of the United States." James Bamford, author of two books on the National Security Agency, said the program could be problematic because it bypasses a special court set up by the 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act to authorize eavesdropping on suspected terrorists. "I didn't hear him specify any legal right, except his right as president, which in a democracy doesn't make much sense," Bamford said in an interview. "Today, what Bush said is he went around the law, which is a violation of the law — which is illegal." Susan Low Bloch, a professor of constitutional law at Georgetown University Law Center, said the president needs authorization from Congress for this kind of activity. "He's taking a hugely expansive interpretation of the Constitution and the president's powers under the Constitution," she said. "It's consistent with everything the White House has been doing since 9/11. And every time that any of these measures have been challenged in the Supreme Court, the Supreme Court has ruled against the administration. The administration just doesn't seem to learn from that." That view was echoed by congressional Democrats. "I tell you, he's President George Bush, not King George Bush. This is not the system of government we have and that we fought for," Sen. Russell Feingold, D-Wis., told The Associated Press. Added Sen. Patrick Leahy (news, bio, voting record), D-Vt.: "The Bush administration seems to believe it is above the law." Republican Sen. Arlen Specter (news, bio, voting record) of Pennsylvania, chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, on Friday said the NSA program was inappropriate and he promised hearings soon. Bush defended the monitoring program as narrowly designed and used "consistent with U.S. law and the Constitution." He said it is employed only to intercept the international communications of people inside the U.S. who have been determined to have "a clear link" to al-Qaida or related terrorist organizations. Government officials have refused to provide details, including defining the standards used to establish such a link or saying how many people are being monitored. The program is reviewed every 45 days, using fresh threat assessments, legal reviews, and information from previous activities under the program, the president said. Intelligence officials involved in the monitoring receive extensive training to make sure civil liberties are not violated, he said. Bush also said members of the congressional leadership have been briefed more than a dozen times on the activities. The program through the nation's largest spy agency is designed in part to fix problems revealed by the 2001 attacks, in which it came to be learned that two of the suicide hijackers were communicating from San Diego with al-Qaida operatives overseas. "The activities I have authorized make it more likely that killers like these 9-11 hijackers will be identified and located in time," Bush said. "The activities conducted under this authorization have helped detect and prevent possible terrorist attacks in the United States and abroad. The president had harsh words for those who revealed the program to the media, saying they acted improperly and illegally. The surveillance, was first disclosed in Friday's New York Times. "As a result, our enemies have learned information they should not have," Bush said. "The unauthorized disclosure of this effort damages our national security and puts our citizens at risk." Bush has more to worry about on Capitol Hill than his difficulties with the Patriot Act. Lawmakers have begun challenging Bush on his Iraq policy, reflecting polling that shows half of the country is not behind him on the war. On Sunday, the president was continuing his effort to reverse that by giving his fifth major speech in less than three weeks on Iraq. This latest one was a 15-minute address, set in prime time from the Oval Office, that was to focus on his vision for Iraq for 2006. One bright spot for the White House was a new poll showing that a strong majority of Americans oppose, as does Bush and most lawmakers, an immediate withdrawal of U.S. troops from Iraq. The AP-Ipsos poll found 57 percent of those surveyed said the U.S. military should stay until Iraq is stabilized. ___ Associated Press writers Andrew Bridges and Will Lester contributed to this report.
Pretty scary, huh? Bush doesn't get it. He doesn't get that he thinks he's protecting our freedoms, yet encroaching on them himself. Or that he may believe that he has honorable goals when he breaks our laws or steps all over precendents, but that the next guy in his administration or the next ... may not. He has no mental aptitude for this at all.
