That article was posted 2 days ago on the Rueters site. So, did they just happen to change it after basso's post?
Why? No one knows how many Jews were killed during the Holocaust. I am not denying that it took place. A strict answer to the question of "were 6mm Jews killed" would have to be no, given that the estimates range anywhere from 4mm on up. Don't get me wrong, the Holocaust did occur and it was terrible, however the 6mm figure has been questioned by virtually all historians. Some think higher, some think lower. I am in no way minimizing the atrocities committed during the Holocaust, please do not misinterpret me.
He's just rebelling against common sense. I think it's the payment he extracts from the world in revenge for spending his days being a well-behaved lap dog in real life. He'll eventually accept his station, and grow out of petty teenage contrarianism.
No idea how many died, but it doesn't matter. The fact industrial murder occured is what shocks me. What is almost as disturbing is how the Europeans (who not only turned its back on the Jew, but also stole many possesions of Jewish families) were able to rid the Jews from Europe by "permitting" them to leave to land that was already inhabited. Their answer to their ulitimate failure was to punish Jordanians, Syrians, Lebonese, and Palestinians (collectively Arabs) by putting a people whose pride has been shattered and gave them weapons in a land they had no government in only a decade before. The whole situation infuriates me, holocoust and post. (my vote no was to the question of 6 million, not if it happened or not. I believe the number may have been lower only because of the number of people in the 40s, and the small percentage of them being Jewish)
No, we are not. That was a sincere question, not inflammatory. I would think that this thread was started in response to the comments coming out of Iran.
I think that IN THEIR VIEW the holocaust is the reason Isreal was created a collective guilt. . . and if that is not true. . .than it undermines isreal's legitiamacy . . . but i don't know Hell Americans get mumbled mouthed about how many Native Americans were killed and how man Africans were killed in the middle passage what ever supports their argument is what they will chose to beleive Rocket River
Initially, the number of those killed was estimated to be much higher than it's now, but it has been adjusted overtime to the current figure of 4-6 million, because the initial estimates were inflated. Still, IMO, the number of those killed is irrelevant; the real legacy of the Holocaust is to reflect on the ugly side of humanity, trying to understand how human beings could feel comfortable with/support such mass slaughter and not be daunted by it, trying to understand the root of this 'evil' that motivated men to slaughter another group of people based on onthing more than their beliefs and perceived 'uniqueness', and most importantly to understand the lessons of history: that this can happen again, may be not at such a large scale, but the practice of genocide is alive and well and still exists in this world. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it, I think that's the real legacy of the Holocaust, and I don't think humanity as a whole has learned its lesson.
I pointed this out in another thread but it bears repeating. Zionism long predates the Holocaust so it wasn't a conspiracy to get the Jews out of the Europe. Also while certainly collective guilt over the Holocaust played a role in the creation of Israel but at the same time Jews had been actively working to create a new nation including taking violent action against the British. http://www.mideastweb.org/zionism.htm
this is thread is ironic insofar as basso's posts about iraq tend to remind me a lot of holocaust-denial people.
True point from a historical perspective, but it should be noted that what made Israel a necessity (and not an option) in the eyes of the average Jew worldwide was the Holocaust; initially, many European Jews opposed the idea and the Zionist movement was met with some resistance. Moreover, it's important to note that while the majority of Jews worldwide became convinced of Zionism, some of the most well-known Zionist figures were much more concerned about ensuring Jewish migration to Palestine than, in some cases, serving the well-being of the Jewish people at large (in some cases saving their lives). For example, Beit Zvi documented the Zionist leadership's seeming indifference to saving Jews from the Nazis except in cases in which it would result in Jewish migratin to Palestine, and not elsewhere (Alaska, Philippines, and Dominican Republic, for example, offered to absorb hundreds of thousands of Jewish migrants to help them escape Europe, but it was sabotaged because it didn't produce the desired result for some Zionist leaders); Yitzak Gruenbaum stated, "They will say that I am anti-Semitic, that I don't want to save the Exile, that I don't have a varm Yiddish hartz...Let them say what they want. I will not demand that the Jewish Agency allocate a sum of 300,000 or 100,000 pounds sterling to help European Jewry. And I think that whoever demands such things is performing an anti-Zionist act."; Ben-Gurion himself stated, "If I knew that it was possible to save all the children of Germany by transporting them to England, but only half of them by transporting them to Palestine, I would choose the second". In the wake of the Kristallnacht pogroms, Ben-Gurion commented that 'the human conscience' might bring various countries to open their doors to Jewish refugees from Germany, and that this was a threat and he warned, "Zionism is in danger."
