Is the dleague really the best way to progress rookies?

tmoney411, my question to you was, You say that McHale had no other option and was forced to play Parsons, last year. Well, are you sure the other rookie situations in the league last year don't have that same excuse. Ask yourself the same question, What were the options of the other teams who played their rookies last year. I actually don't know the answer, but I always assume some were either force fed too soon, or, as you say, there were no other real options.

Compare that to our PF position. There are a ton of other options. So, your "no other options" argument, is actual circular in that Coach having many other options is the obvious reason why DMo and Jones are not getting PT versus other young players.

 

Marcus is better? Are we really sure about that? THat's not definite by any means. Marcus has a good week and then will turn it around with a absolutely abysmal week. I don't think we should be bragging about how he worked out over his brother because that's not proven, at least not from what I've seen.

They are different players any ways. One comes into the NBA trying to be a SF and the other a PF.

I didn't say we don't develop young players. Just by playing them you are developing them. I said that I don't think the NBDL has much to do with their development and if anything is just a waste of real development they could be having by playing. I'm pretty sure most agree that actual PT is most beneficial to young players in the NBA.

 

Yeah, sure, in a vacuum, more PT on your NBA team is beneficial to a single player, except in situations where they get embarrassed and lose confidence. But, you must look at full team dynamics.

To fully development JAMES HARDEN, you must put him out there with the best players, and not force him to baby rookies who are too raw. Same goes for developing Lin, Parsons and Asik.

They deserve to play with the best YOUNG players and not have to learn with rawness too soon. To force them to play with rookies when 2-3 yr players in Morris, Smith and PPat are developing options is not necessarily the best for them (ie Harden, Lin, Parsons and Asik...our core developing players).

I'm confident DMo and Jones (one of them) will develop. I'm not worried. I don't understand why you guys use moments like this as an excuse to bash coaches.

It's not really that good of an example.

 

See, this is where I differ. If a guy is going to lose confidence after getting embarrassed than that guy just doesn't mentally have it. Whether you play him next year, the year after, or whatever...he's going to get embarrassed eventually, this league's too good so this whole "You don't want them playing bad and losing confidence thing" I just don't believe that at all. Harden had a pretty bad finals, did he get his head down? Nope.

Lin has been embarrassed as well on his road to being a starter, did he? Nope. The real players just strive to do better. If you are that scared that a guy is going to get schooled by a vet or a all-star player and he's going to break down and cry and become Kwame Brown then you drafted the wrong guy any ways.

I didn't even bash the coach, there are tons of other reason to bash McHale anyways.. I've said all through the threat that the organization as a whole thinks.

Your point about developing Harden and the core is fair, but how do we know that D-Mo and Jones aren't better than the options in front of them? Did it really help Harden or Lin on that losing streak when those two guys ahead of them would go out and get 3 pts and 2 rebs while the Rockets played 5 on 4?

 

LOL...if they lose confidence then they never would have made it anyhow. How about this then: If they have it in them to develop, they won't all of a sudden lose it. (See how that Circular Argument works...lol)

We aren't talking about stars here -- the top 5 lotto picks. It's not just confidence; that just one example. You manage rookies in order to give them perfect situations from which to learn and not develop bad habits. Not too much to think about, and not too much focus by the defense, and not too much freelancing or only embracing what helps their stats ... these all can end up developing bad habits. Plus, then you have the defensive side of the learning curve. You can't allow bad habits on that side, either.

BTW: the Euro League is re-knowned for not playing rookies. Do you wish to explain that?

cherry picking again. Would you stop it. Your point now is to pick out our losing streak? smh

You know the answer to the entire season is YES. Harden, Lin, Parson and Asik's development is playing them in the best 9 man rotations on the team...good team chemistry is the best atmosphere for our young core to learn.

Yes, you can slowly introduce rookies into that mix...but make no mistake...the development of Harden, Lin, Asik and Parsons is much more important that prematurely playing DMo and Jones. They will be fine fighting for minutes with the other young PFs/Cs.

btw: it's pretty damn clear that DMo is not nearly as good as Morris and PPat right now.

 

Circular logic? I said pretty clearly that if you are worried that a guy is going to get embarrassed by a vet and then break down and lose all of his confidence then you drafted the wrong player. So if they have the confidence then they won't all a sudden lose it...I agree.

My thing is when people say (as you did) that you don't want him getting embarrassed and losing confidence...well if that is the case then you just drafted a guy you are going to be disappointed in.

All that is on coaching. It's on coaches to teach the players the right thing to do in this situation or not, it's on coaches to teach good habits, all that has nothing to really do with the d-league.

You can develop bad habits in the D-league too. Just like you can develop bad habits in college.

Do you wish to explain why Popovich has no problem playing rookies?

Any ways, the Euroleague has a completely different system in where a kid can be a professional at like 17.

I'm sorry but when we drafted D-Mo and I read what the Rockets thought of him I got the impression that they really believe that they drafted a guy that had a shot at being a big time player and that they were fortunate that he slipped. So it is news to me that his development is behind guys like Asik or Parsons on the priority line. I'd argue that D-mo and Jones would benefit a lot more playing with these guys than the scrubs they play with in the NBDL, that's for certain even going by your logic.

Yes I bought up the losing streak because both of these two guys that are supposed to be so much better for a long stretch were absolute negatives in every way during that stretch of games.

Maybe, I've barely seen D-mo or Jones play to even know or to judge. Except the time Jones was thrown in a game or two at the start of a season. He didn't play terrible either. D-Mo plays a few times in garbage time though for what it's worth.

 

The circular logic is: If DMo and Jones need immediate PT to develop, then that means if they don't get immediate PT, they will fail. Right?

DMo and Jones will not be harmed by fighting for PT against a PF position stacked with young players. If they are harmed by lack of PT, then they weren't going to develop anyhow.

That's the circular logic. If you can do it, I can, too.

And again,,,this year isn't about DMo and Jones...it's about developing HARDEN. I don't want PFs needing pampering and getting in his freaking way, because they don't know what to do.

 

Neither does Kevin McHale...jeez.

see, told you. You can't explain why the Euroleague is reknowned for not playing younger players, except by saying they have DEVELOPMENT LEAGUES!

 

The Bold and underline is not what I think. Eventually if you are good you are going to break out one year or another, that's pretty much how it goes. Even if one coach doesn't like what he sees and you get in his dog house, you'll go to another team and prove the previous coach wrong.

So I don't think that they are going to fail, hardly.

I just think the Dleague is not the best way to develop players. I think if you(the Rockets I mean) really believe in D-Mo than there is no harm in him (maybe harm in the W/L record) to throw him out there 7 minutes every night and see what he can do. I think say 7 minutes every night is much more beneficial to a player than a year spent in the NBDL.

 

Well do you wish to explain why Pop will play rookies even on a team that contends every year?

Again, European sports have a whole different mindset on developing young players. To call them development leagues is just wrong because see in the Spanish basketball league (one of the best) they have promotion and relegation. It's like if the RGV winning the championship would have a chance to replace the bobcats or something.

 

Right, so in the meantime, I don't mind Coach making them fight for the right to play. It's not like both of them can get significant minutes, unless you just bench both of PPat and Morris. That would require just too big of a rotation, and that's not really good for anyone.

If they have it in them to be hard workers and develop, they don't need artificial PT vs NBDL. There time will come. I don't have an issue with this.

 

Just because they have relagation and we don't, doesn't mean their B leaguge teams are better than the best NBDL teams. RGV would compete with the Spanish lower league teams.

The difference in "mindset" isn't relegation; the difference is those leagues believe in playing the vets and young players earning their time. That's why DMo has yet to play for his National Team. They don't care to develop the younger players at the expense of the team.

 

What does this have to do with whether McHale plays rookies or not? Are you saying since Popovich plays rookies, that means McHale doesn't.

Or are you saying since Popovich doesn't use the NBDL as much as other teams, that means all other teams are flawed.

Cherry picking. Picking the habits of one coach to put in question the entire use of the NDBL. smh

Pops team has vets with a very stable learning environment. We don't. We need to develop JAMES HARDEN in a stable environment with the best 9-man rotation we can field.

 

They have no problem putting out young players, but the whole system is different. You wouldn't even use a term like 'Rookie' a player would get into their system at a young age and by the time he plays he might be old enough to be a rookie in the NBA....which is why so many of the European players drafted are even younger than the NBA players drafted now but have actual professional experience.

I'm saying that the best coach in the NBA seems to rather play his guys. Cherry picking? Picking the habits of the best coaches ever... so he's obviously had some success here...even with guys like Parker he played them. I know the NBDL was nothing then but he played him major minutes and used game time and experience to groom him into the best player he can be. So yeah Lol, Pop's not a bad guy to take example from.

He'll even sit his guys and just go with as many of those inexperienced and rookie players as possible. He does this many times a season and yet it seems like every player thrives there...so yeah maybe he's doing something right? They don't really send down the guys they draft, they sent down Joseph but they usually keep those players on their team.

Am I saying that other teams are flawed in sending them down. Nope. situations are different for teams you are right. But the whole thing where people think the Dleague is best for rookies I disagree clearly.

 

Shandon Anderson thrived as a young starter in a very stable Jerry Sloan environment of vets where he had a very simple role.

That's doesn't really mean he was a legitimate NBA starter. And it showed when he left.

If you cheery pick Pops, I can show you the exact opposite outcome with another HOF coach. If you want to use Gary Neal as an example, I will show you Shandon Anderson and Jerry Sloan.

Just because a HOF coach like Sloan and Pops can get rookies to perform in a starter role in a very simple role doesn't mean a young team like the Rockets can or should do that with DMo. Like I said before, a smart coach will put the rookies in a simple role, so they can focus on simple improvement strategies, and avoid situations of giving them too much to handle. We don't have a stable environment of smart HOF vets.

btw: just for the record, I have no problem trading PPat and/or Marcus at midseason to elevate DMo or Jones.

I don't think anyone is really saying this. I think they are saying that the Dleague is often a better option than traveling with the team during periods of no practice time and little to no PT.

 

The Rockets organization does not like losing. And McHale is the one who hates losing the most. The first step in deciding whether a player can play in the NBA is practice. We do not have an inside view of the Rockets practices. However the next step is garbage time. We can view every minute of garbage time. Take D-Mo for instance. He is competitive in garbage time. OK, but that is not what you want to see. In order to make the rotation you should be fairly dominant in garbage time. And that we have not seen. Perhaps in the coming months we will see him start to get minutes, but then again, maybe not.

The Rockets organization seems to draft with the future in mind. Looking at the most recent draft was was obvious that Sully was going to come into the league as one of the most NBA ready rookies. And so why did he not go higher? Because he does not have the physical tools to get better. He can learn the NBA system, but his ceiling is set in stone.

It is strange to see comparisons of the Rockets coaches and players to other teams. Every team and every player is different in large and small ways. Because of that any comparison to Pop's Spurs is speculative and best. At worst it is foolish.

 

@JayGoogle: As someone who likes the Spurs, do you have any idea HOW much crap Pop took from Spurs fans for the last few years for never giving Tiago Splitter a lot of playing time?

Sure, he plays some rookies, but not all of them. Just like McHale, who played Parsons no doubt because he showed plenty during practice and garbage time ( his stretch defending Durant at the beginning of last season no doubt was a big deal).

 

I don't really disagree with anything you've said there. My thing was always this notion that playing rookies could be bad for them and it was better to send them to the NBDL vs playing them in actual games.

I've pretty much said that I think the NBDL is best to keep guys fresh and in basketball shape if you aren't going to play them. I just don't think it does much for development compared to actual playing experience.

No, I think every player benefits more from actual NBA experience. They all are different but NBA experience isn't going to hinder them...bad coaching will..but not minutes.

Yeah but he still played, they just wanted to see more of him.

 

THIS

also LOL at Morris being more ready then Dmo...

 

I don't know who told you that, but it is complete wrong and untrue. Euroleague teams play young players much more than NBA teams do. In fact they play much younger players a lot more also.

The truth is that Euroleague is extremely friendly and open to playing young players and they get way more playing time in general than young players in the NBA do.

What you said is not only untrue, it's actually the total opposite.