Is the Bagwell Situation getting a little Sketchy?

Perhaps I should clarify that to say the "McGwire, Sosa, Bonds" steroid era. Bagwell just didn't appear to have the steroid physique in 1994. He had the popeye (Steve Garvey) forearms, but the rest of his physique appeared "normal".

 

It seems to me like the sudden explosion in numbers started to happen in 1995, if not earlier. A number of players were on ridiculous paces that season.

So did the sudden explosion of people's physiques. Though I've made this point before, just because you don't look like Lou Ferrigno doesn't mean you can't have taken steroids - see James Toney during the John Ruiz fight.

Likewise, there's pretty extensive accounts of people using steroids in the early to mid 90's, including some Astros (or former astros, depending on exactly when he started)

Again, I don't know why, in terms of Bagwell, or any player, you'd limit the discussion to 1997 or later. Steroids were extremely prominent in baseball well before then.

Also, I don't think there's an unbroken line between guys who used stuff in the 60's and the 90's - the stuff used recently in baseball is so much more scientifically advanced (they hadn't sythesized HGH by then, IIRC) than the old stuff that its almost apples and oranges.

 

early nineties, try late eighties,

the reason mac's and sosa's numbers jumped in the late eighties also include the small ballparks, watered down pitching, and juice baseballs (allegely), but we know the first two things listed are factors which we have to remember included an overall explosion in baseball. or maybe the steroids just got better.

I am suspicious of bagwell also, but I understand why people aren't, because his home run totals have been fairly consistent, as is everything in his career. but like you say it boils down to when do you believe he started, because steroid use has been around baseball for longer than the mid to late nineties.

 

I personally really don't care about steroids like I don't care about spit balls, corked bats, stealing signs, or any other form of baseball cheating. I think before selig runs this special investigation there has to also be evidence that steroids clearly enhance a player's performance. this isn't track and field.

banning steroids I also have no problem with because they should have been tested for in the first place but what's done is done and you'll never know what was exactly done so baseball, despite the books and inquiries should just move on.

 

Of course. I did acknowledge that steroids were *always* in use. But in the late '90s (and I was thinking '96 and on, but perhaps as you point out '95 can be included as well), you had one-hit wonders bulking up and then disappearing. Brady Anderson hit 50? Are you kidding me? I was speaking, in other words, of a greater percentage of suspects across MLB as a whole.

I agree completely! This is another reason that a lot of people set aside the late '90s as its own "Steroid Era". Because the juicers upped the ante. Not only was HGH used prevalently, but "Clear", or whatever it was, which may have enticed guys who normally wouldn't have juiced--even if steroids weren't at the time banned, every guy feels better if he can hide something he's not sure he should be doing.

 

Sounds like a y.p. Maybe you need to get out more.

Or perhaps if Barkley would've shot up like Bagwell he wouldn't have been injured and you're not whining about this still.

 

You think its coincidental that the year Caminiti admitted he used steroids, his numbers were off the charts compared to the rest of his career? You think its coincidental that the year Bonds started using, his numbers went through the roof?

You think all these players are using steroids without any evidence that it helps them?

 

No talk about Baggs early exit? I can't believe he won't retire before the season starts. Writing is on the wall, even for him...

 

Bonds has hit more than 50 HR in a season only 1 time in his career. Even when he was a skinny ass in 1993, he hit 46 home runs (3rd most in his career) and 123 RBI's (2nd most in his career). With or without substances, Barry Bonds is one of the greatest hitters in the history of the game.

 

i think that had more to do with juiced baseballs than juiced humans. as was mentioned bonds hit 46 homers in 93 and he was skinny as a bean pole.

 

Of course, when he hit the 46 HRs in 1993, he did it in 550+ At-Bats. When he hit 45+ HRs in 5 consecutive seasons starting the year after he did steroids, he walked far more and had less than 500 bats each time, and 400 or so at-bats each of the final 3 years.

Without steroids, he didn't put up the highest OPSes in the history of baseball. Without steroids, he didn't hit 70 HR's. Players have admitted steroids helped them, yet you'd like to believe they had no effect. Sounds like denial to me.

Odd how the mythical juiced baseballs didn't affect all hitters, eh?

 

What I find funny is that Bonds, who apparently hates the media, wanted to take more roids because he was jealous of the attention Mcgwire and Sosa was getting.

 

Do you still think he is on roids? I would think that its safe to say that he is not on anything that would get him in trouble. We'll see how the season pans out. If steroids had that much of an impact on him, then we should see a big drop in his production. Barring injury, I say he still rips the ball like he has over his career.

Just for starters, even though it is preseason, he has knocked out 4 HR in 13 at-bats.

He will still hit his HRs, he will still walk a crapload, and his OPS will continue to be off the charts.

 

If steroids don't help you much, then why would players risk their legacy by doing them??????????

 

Clearly, steroids are of little help if you don't know how to hit a ball. However, these are major leaguers and we will assume they can hit a ball. Plenty of baseball players can hit fly ball after fly ball, but normally don't get it over the wall. Hitting the ball matters, but how hard and far you can hit it is important.

People aren't suggesting that everyday guys can hit homeruns with steroids. They are suggesting that professional baseball players who already have the skills to hit a ball... can hit more homeruns if on steroids

 

Are you talking about Bonds? If so, at least 3 of the steroids he used (cream, clear, HGH) cannot be tested for right now, so this steroid policy doesn't actually stop people from using steroids as far as I can tell. It may scare some people, but the ones with access the best stuff can still keep using.

Second, just because you stop using steroids doesn't mean all the benefits you gained from it suddenly disappear. Steroids helped him build muscle mass - as long as he keeps working out and such, that muscle mass shouldn't just instantly disappear. Where he might lose out is in whatever steroids he used that helped his vision and ability to see the ball. I have no idea if that stuff would "wear off" or not.

 

as does not donating to the tipjar.

 

as does caring what posters on a Rockets BBS do with their money.

I say show some respect to your elders.

 

who cares if bonds used steroids. it seems as though half of the league was using during this "juiced" era, anyway. the guy was a badass before steroids, and is still a badass, with or without steroids.

Bonds should launch his own investigation against MLB, to expose everyone that turned a blind eye to what was going on.

If I were a 40/40 potential perennial MVP candidate, and was all of a sudden being outshined by ACNE MAC, and Shammy Sosa, I would have done the same.

its not like bonds went from being a singles hitter to a slugger(a la palmeiro), he remained competitive.

blame MLB, for turning a blind eye, blame the american fan, for being in love with the longball, just stop trying to place the blame squarely on the players shoulders...its sickening.

 

Yeah, it's everyone else's fault that he had to use steroids. Right.

Every player has a choice to make - many players chose not to use steroids. Bonds didn't. He, and everyone else that's found to be using or having used, deserves whatever crap they get from it.

Excuses like "other people did it too" or "the culture made me do it" are weak and childish for people who have ability to make their choices in life. He made a choice that made him millions upon millions of dollars based upon a fraud. The only downside of that is that he'll get booed everywhere he goes and his place in baseball history will be tainted. I think he can handle it.