Is the Bagwell Situation getting a little Sketchy?

Ah, yes, the neverending superiority of the "good 'ol days".

You're in the infinitesimal minority on this.

 

That's not the point. Champions don't quit. Multimillionairres should not represent our city with a half-assed non-effort on a big stage like the NBA playoffs.

 

yeah..it was much more fun when we went to the playoffs 2x in 34 years as opposed to going with a great deal of regularity in the 90's and 00's.

 

http://www.astrosdaily.com/cards/1986F.html
(btw look how skinny they were)

 

It's not the chance of winning I was worried about. It was the complete lack of effort. That's inexcusable when you're up 20 in the clinching game of the series. As is going out with a grin on your face after you gave up.

All of the energy and personal time I put into rooting for my teams, the one thing I cannot handle is a lack of effort.

 

I hear you, but after Chuck went down even I knew it was over. And the Rockets just gave me too many good times to hold it against them.

 

You know, I could actually see your point regarding Bagwell IF you think he was on performance enhancing drugs, but to simply "throw out" the 90s because you didn't think baseball was cool is sort of weak.

 

No kidding! With the notable exceptions, of course, of Señor Smoke and Conehead Kerfeld.

 

"Glenn Davis is not walking through that door, fans. Kevin Bass is not walking through that door, and Mike Scott is not walking through that door. And if you expect them to walk through that door, they're going to be gray and old. What we are is young, exciting, hard-working, and we're going to improve. People don't realize that, and as soon as they realize those three guys are not coming through that door, the better this town will be for all of us because there are young guys in that (locker) room playing their asses off."

 

Performance enhancing drugs have made a shambles of the record book, yes? If so, explain not how the ball goes further but rather how it helps to HIT the ball. Therein lies my problem with this whole discussion.

IF Bags juiced, IF HE DID, he still had to HIT that odd spherical missile. Same with Bonds whom I 'loathe' as I 'love' JB. These guys still had to actually do it.

I wish Bags were retired just because it would be less painful as a fan.

 

believe me, i'm the last person to argue that the whole era needs an asterisk.

but just because you make contact with the ball doesn't mean it will be a hit. if fly balls fly out instead of being caught at the fence...if loopers turn into line drives because the force of the player hitting the ball is harder...well...then it's not enough to say, "yeah, but they still had to hit the ball."

 

It had nothing to do with my reasoning about Nolan > Jeff.

But since you asked.... It has a lot to do with hitting a ball. Steroids make you less tired physically, your swing would be faster becuase your recovery time and conditioning is better. A strike out could become a home run.

 

Do you really think that Bagwell did NOT take performance enhancers?

 

Define "performance enhancers".

 

ha ha, man I love that speech.

Let's continue!

"I wish we had $90 million under the salary cap. I wish we could buy the world. We can't; the only thing we can do is work hard, and all the negativity that's in this town sucks. I've been around when Moses Malone was booed. I've been around when (Hakeem) Olajuwon was booed. And it stinks. It makes the greatest town, greatest city in the world, lousy. The only thing that will turn this around is being upbeat and positive like we are in that locker room... and if you think I'm going to succumb to negativity, you're wrong. You've got the wrong guy leading this team."

 

You can't use the argument to deny steroids altered the records. Bonds could always hit for %, but he couldn't go yard 70+ times a year before he "expanded". McGwire, Sosa, and Bonds wouldn't be in the books for any more than 50 in a season if they were clean.

Borrowing the steroids can't make you hit the ball argument only works in regards to guys making it to the majors by taking pills...

Evan

 

I honestly do not know what he may or may not have taken. Again, the "steroid" era started after his development as a power hitter and his home runs never did a dramatic increase as did McGwire's, Sosa's and Bonds'. From 1994-2003 Bagwell's HR totals were relatively consistent. Had he not gotten hurt and had there not been a strike, he was on pace to hit 54 in 1994 and that was in the Astrodome. That was far and away his highest "slugging" year - he slugged at a .750 pace. His next best year was at a .615 pace and he's had no other years over .600. Bagwell would be the only player to take performance enhancing supplements and NOT come close to his best slugging year, assuming the steroid era started in the late 90s.

 

Why would anybody assume that? Bonds started using them by the late 90's because he felt that everybody else was already at that time

Caminiti was using them at least by 1996 when he won the MVP, and probably earlier - guess what year that gets us close to....

...and Canseco said he (and others) were using them by the early 90's when he was with Oakland.

 

And Tom House & others used them in the 60's and 70s.

 

A lot of people assume that. I've seen several references to the Juiceball era or the steroid era as 96-2004 or 95-2004. Even the examples you mention fit into that time frame.

As steroids were *always* in use, I think when writers or baseball historians delineate an era they are referring to the seemingly sudden explosion of power numbers that came about--in the late '90s. Bobrek is correct that Bagwell's increase in production preceded that. It doesn't disprove that Bagwell ever juiced, but there have been no convincing arguments that he did, either.