Maybe? You must be very young or blind. Dream: Champion, HOF, MVP, DPOY, All-Star, etc Tracy: Nothing
"You know it's not natural"? Again you make assumptions. "Anyone who picked up a basketball"? Assumption. For some learning a technique could be challenging and for others it could be natural. Does shooting a basketball require technique? Did Tracy not practice it? You make it sound like Tracy was born shooting a basketball and Hakeem had to have classes on the technique of footwork. Anyone that's owned a soccerball could tell you soccer requires quick feet. That's what soccer has to do with basketball and Hakeems play. Btw soccer requires running, as in running up and down the court. Tracy should have played soccer. I watched Jordan play and it sure did look natural to me when he was hanging up all those banners. Or are you saying he wan't a natural because he constantly worked to improve his game? I've seen Jordan, I've seen Hakeem and Tracy couldn't make a pimp on either ones a$$ on his best day, except maybe his highlight of his career which only lasted 13 seconds. The truth in your eyes maybe. That's fine. But the only thing that makes me want to put a gun in my mouth is Tracy's fan boys telling everyone how great he was, when it is furthest from the truth. More natural than Hakeem? Jordan? Where is the evidence? Not assumptions. It's funny you dismiss hard work and practice, two things I assume Tracy wasn't good at. Oh yeah he didn't need too, it was natural. Lol
This thread isn't about T-Mac's prime at all. It is about his potential based on talent, and his prime was nowhere near the limit of his potential. Agreed, that Hakeem is still more talented, but the fact that we couldn't get past the first round with T-Mac has severely clouded everyone's judgement. T-Mac is either 2nd or 3rd most naturally gifted players to where a rockets jersey. 4th may be pushing it if you put Barkley and Drex in front.
Natural talent doesnt equal reaching the ceiling of your talent. DD, working hard and being talented are 2 different things. Lamar Odom is one of the most talented players to ever play in the nba. Rasheed Wallace is also one of the most talented players to ever play. Tracy is one of the most talented players to ever play in the nba. There arent many players who could drop damn near a triple double and shut down the other teams best player who happened to be a 7ft power forward. Talent,skilled,ability to do whatever he wanted,when he wanted. That was tracy mcgrady. Now he couldnt sustain it long enough to be a great player nor did he have the inner fortitude to perservere through adversity,but he was a extremely talented player. How many 6'8-6'9 players with his skill level and athleticism? Not many.
Been out for two weeks, so sorry if this has been repeated... Dream by far. Basketball, Team Handball, Soccer. I'm guessing that if he had stuck with Team Handball, he would have been the most dominant player in history with Gretzky-comparable numbers. He probably would have made a serviceable Soccer goalie as well. Still, we're lucky he picked hoops. And as far as natural leadership talent... please.
Agreed generally. I was just addressing the body control issue. Good post, and I agree, but do you remember that super long debate thread about 'is hard work a talent' or whatever? The opposing point of view is much more common on Clutchfans. I think TMac's falling out with Houston affected the ability of most Houston fans to think objectively about him.
lmao you trolling? Seriously are you trying to make sense or no? You made a very strong argument that soccer a game in which you cannot use your hands, and basketball a game in which you cannot use your feet are in fact very very closely correlated skillwise. You can clearly see this by the common pool of 6'9" soccer players and 5'6" pro basketball players we see in both sports. My assumption reading your post is that premise is r****ded. Unfortunately I have no evidence for it. Well other than logic, but that currency isn't accepted by tcadriel. And you realize that Hakeem played goalie right? You could have made a less asinine comparison if you had talked about that. Then your comparison that soccer and basketball share common techniques would still have been stupid but less obviously so because we see goalies post guys up and dunk on them all the time on the soccer pitch.
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As a goalie, you need timing to block the shots from the players of the other team, also you need footwork to be prepared for anything. Olajuwon started playing at the age of 16, and eight years later he was playing in the NBA Finals. I say Francis and Drexler are more naturally talented than tmac, I cant say Ralph Sampson, because I didnt see him play.
Clyde maybe, but francis? McGrady was 6'9 and was a freak of nature with his skill set for his size. Francis? hahahaha. Olajuwon is by far the most physically and talented Rocket ever. The guy was like a montain lion in his college days. He was running the floor like a guard.
Can partly agree. Though 4/5's of us here have the natural talent of working hard. Where's that gotten us besides a bunch of basketball forum posts? My earlier measure was if he could work on EACH aspect of the game, he would have some of the least weaknesses of any player. McGrady displayed a form that he coulda been good in each aspect he out single minded focus into effort into. Some players have big areas of strengths and obvious weaknesses. McGrady could have been his team's best 3 pt shooter, free throw shooter, shot blocker, steals leader, league leader at his position in rebounding, assists, etc...he put it all together in '03 when he had his career high in FG%, 3pt%, steals, FT attempts/game, and the results were breathtaking. Dwayne Wade is an example of a player that went into the higher echelon and stayed there. Thats how it is with most players really. McGrady is like Kevin Durant all of a sudden slipping down into Joe Johnson/Jerry Stackhouse level. It was plenty fair to expect McGrady to sustain his excellence for longer, but he just didnt have it in him. People saying Dream played soccer, by a lot of accounts McGrady could have been a professional baseball pitcher. I read he had a 90 MPH fastball (My adjusted guess is low 80s).
Francis was sick. But he wasn't as naturally as versatile as Tmac nor did he have his size. Part of what makes Francis such a badass is actually the fact that he was about 6'3" but played so big around the rim. Francis is arguably the more exciting player around the rim taking everything into account than Tmac but he didn't see the court like Tmac, have his effortless outside shot or defense. As for the side topic, here we have a clear exhibit where "heart" and "hard work" are clearly bifurcated. Steve Francis is the living example that heart is something you are probably born with but hard work is something you have to learn.
Dude, why do people keep saying "natural this", "natural that", like that means something? Do you realize how stupid that sounds? Let's see some definition for what "natural talent" means, please. Solid definitions, not vague hand waving. If it means athleticism, as the OP seemed to believe, e.g. fastest runner or highest vertical, than there are plenty of Rockets that beat TMac in that area. If it means being good without having to work hard, then, first of all, there's no way to judge that. Secondly, no one in the NBA has not worked hard. It simply goes with pro sports. Thirdly, guys like Steve Francis and others were clearly better with less work than TMac. Look at what franchise was doing in middle school, for christ's sake. If it means athleticism per size, than Dream was obviously on another level completely, there's no comparison. If it means something else, tell us about it in clear terms so we can actually discuss. Oh and to any idiot that thinks Hakeem's footwork was "technique" and not natural talent- If that's true, why is there NO ONE in the NBA today that can match him? Guys like Dwight Howard pay thousands to trainers (that didn't exist in Hakeem's day) to try and develop a passable post game, but they simple don't have the talent. Explain to me why Kobe freakin' Bryant can work with him for days over the summer, but not be able to develop the kind of footwork that dream had? To the OP-- You acknowledged that you don't know much about the history of Rocket's basketball, so you should probably be more humble about asking a question that has the words "most," "Rockets," and "ever" in it.
Exactly! Working hard or work ethic isn't a talent. Matt maloney could've worked like kobe bryant, but he wasn't going to be as good as john stockton or magic johnson. You have to put in and sustain the hard work to go along with the talent. I also agree with the part about everyone that has made it to the nba has been a hard worker to get there. You don't roll out of bed and play d-1 ball then get drafted in the nba. Now, to sustain greatness or be great, it takes a committment to improve all the time. Thats why some flatline and some keep rising, hit a peak, and stay there seemlingly forever.
I know the argument's settled, but I still wanted to submit this as empirical evidence. <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/FwGMayCSibQ?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/FwGMayCSibQ?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>
please be fair here, you're giving dream all his individual awards and leaving out t-macs. The real list should look like Dream: Champ, HOF, mvp, finals mvp, dpoy, all-star, defensive teams, all-nba team T-mac: nba most improved, scoring titles, all-nba team, allstar Obviously Dream has more accomplishments but you have to at least be fair to t-mac in this debate and list the things he has actually done.
