Is spacing overrated?

Yeah Rudy was an offensive pioneer. Was looking at the championship rotations the other day. Increasing shooting at the 4 and letting Hakeem take a lot of midrange made us into arguably the best spaced team in the league. Even those with shooters at the 5 would insist then on a big defender at the 4.

Which explains how they were able to overachieve so heavily with the talent they had.

 

I think you are over-estimating how much the Rockets offense deviate from a "normal" offense these days. The Rockets offense isn't some revolution. It's still mostly a paint/3s/fts type of shot selection where really only Sengun has some green light on mid-ragners. Defensively it's also a switching scheme. The rest is mostly personnel based decisions. It's a team with a lot of athleticism so they hit the boards. FVV and Jalen, for all their faults, have always been low turnover players even before Udoka's time. And Stone clearly cares about shooting when he spent #3 picks on Jabari and Sheppard.

The Rockets are simply FAILING to do some of the things that better offenses do, most notably making a high percentage of shots relative to the league. They are 19th in 3pt attempts. They are trying to shoot, just not succeeding at it.

 

Spacing or no spacing, you have to do SOMETHING well offensively to make it.

Just don't think we have an offensive identity that is consistently shown from game to game.

 

Not even close to true .... Spacing benefits all teams and it absolutely benefits teams that can't shoot well.... IF.... that team has great finishers/drivers.... It opens up the paint and allows for easier looks for not just the ball handlers, but everyone in general.

 

You and I have entirely different concepts of what "spacing" is.

Spacing benefits players who's best skillsets are scoring or driving to the rim. Competent 3 pt shooting is one way that creates a good spaced team. There are other ways that involve smart off ball movements

Spacing is about having cleaner lanes to the rim.

 

Exactly. Amen's insertion into the starting line-up has absolutely energized our offense and, in particular, Jalen. We get into the half-court offense much quicker. Teams are now having to be concerned about two guys with incredible ability to get to the hoop and it is actually opening up the court for everybody else. In the past, team's have pretty much ignored Jabari, because of his passitivity on that side of the court. Amen is outscoring Jabari, outrebounding him, and getting more assists, blocks and steals,

Jalen is playing more efficiently and hitting his outside shots, FVV adds another spot-up shooter most of the game, instead of dominating the ball and chunking up last minute 3's. When Jabari comes back, he should either take Dillon's spot or come off the bench. Dillon is pretty much a spot up shooter on offense and Jabari can play that role and add even more rebounding.

 

Watch and learn.

Also watch to the end to see things Reed needs to work on. It's about speed release.

 

Who needs spacing right.

 

Dude, spacing revolution came about for teams who's stars don't have range. It started with C's (Hakeem actually) and spread out to the perimeter when you had guys like Dwayne Wade and Allen Iverson.

Teams that shoot well have good spacing. You don't need to add spacing to a team that's shooting well. That floor is optimized. You can add more but there's diminishing returns at some point that make it redundant to taking any other shot - that's because as you increase your 3PA your 3PT% goes down.

That PROVEN 3PT%-3PA causation is exactly why we dispute that Jalen is just a bad shooter or a non-shooter. The truth is Jalen is a bad shooter at 8 attempts a game - which is double the league average. If you're an average shooter and you take double the league average volume, your % will nosedive.

I'm very surprised your new to these concepts, we ran them for 15 years under Morey and in that period we were the 2nd winningest regular season team in the NBA and only an injury prevented us from unseating the most talented team in NBA history from the throne with half their talent. Just genius spacing and mismatches on offense resulting in - at the time - the best offense in NBA history with just CP3 or Eric Gordon being the 2nd best scorer against elite teams.

We're the spacing team. Space city means more than one thing.

 

Some observations last game.

With Rockets offensive struggles I saw them change a few things in the sets they ran. Players were in different spots than usual and Jalen has more opportunity to initiate the offense.

Here Fred screens farther out up top for Green who comes off a DHO from Sengun to drive to the paint with 2 corners on each side.


I don’t think I’ve seen Sengun operate from here before. Especially with team stacked weak side. This gives Sengun a wide open lane to drive or pass out to shooters or Tate in dunker or short corner spot.


Jalen getting a screen up way out near half court then Fred screens Morant for Green to turn the corner and attack the paint. He also had Sengun on the roll as an option.


Seeing a lot more screens from the guards up top with Jalen handling.

 

I also think Harden is in the conversation as the best regular season offensive player in NBA history. There are lots of factors that go into a good offense. Having a transformational player like Harden can completely change the narrative about whether a team has good spacing are not. I think Amen's and Jalen's ability to get down hill is going to lead to better spacing. You can pack the paint all you want and Amen and Jalen are still going to get to the rim. Moving FVV to spot up shooter is also going to improve spacing. When he is playing a reasonable amount of minutes and not dribbling the clock out, his 3 pt shooting will come back to the norm. It's up to Ime, but we can have a good to great offense with just a few tweaks.

 

​

Links didn't work smh

 

Some observations last game.

With Rockets offensive struggles I saw them change a few things in the sets they ran. Players were in different spots than usual and Jalen has more opportunity to initiate the offense.




Here Fred screens farther out up top for Green who comes off a DHO from Sengun to drive to the paint with 2 corners on each side.


I don’t think I’ve seen Sengun operate from here before. Especially with team stacked weak side. This gives Sengun a wide open lane to drive or pass out to shooters or Tate in dunker or short corner spot.


Jalen getting a screen up way o

 

nvm i give up on posting photos since this forum doesn't allow it. Can't post directly via NBA App since violates legal rules of recording via screen recording apps. And none of my photos directly from my TV screen can be posted here.

 

Some observations last game.

With Rockets offensive struggles I saw them change a few things in the sets they ran. Players were in different spots than usual and Jalen has more opportunity to initiate the offense.

https://ibb.co/DYd5Hcy

Here Fred screens farther out up top for Green who comes off a DHO from Sengun to drive to the paint with 2 corners on each side.

https://ibb.co/vDJV7QW

I don’t think I’ve seen Sengun operate from here before. Especially with team stacked weak side. This gives Sengun a wide open lane to drive or pass out to shooters or Tate in dunker or short corner spot.

https://ibb.co/JqRsRNK

Jalen getting a screen up way out near half court then Fred screens Morant for Green to turn the corner and attack the paint. He also had Sengun on the roll as an option.

https://ibb.co/DGyhjWP

Seeing a lot more screens from the guards up top with Jalen handling.

 

For the love of God can we bring in Mike Brown as assistant? He's tight with Udoka and might want to have a job while looking for another. They have the Nigerian national team connection. Out of Jenkins/Rivers/Brown/Malone - Brown's system provides the most spacing with the least shooting. Brown proved you don't need the greatest shooter in NBA history to run most of Kerr's offense - an excuse lots of people make for not changing the system.

Spacing can't be overrated because since you started this thread OP we are having to teach it to many posters. They seem to have heard about it but don't believe it has any material impact or don't quite understand very specifically how much it can move the needle up or down. Like if you tell someone that Ja has the best spacing in the NBA and Green has the worst, they can't fathom that Ja would be drop in efficiency and Green would be more efficient if they swapped places. They can't fathom that better spacing can be achieved without improving shooting as the Kings/Brown did for Fox as soon as they realized they need his points even if his jumper is broken at age 24 or whatever.

There are simple concepts being misunderstood too. "Our spacing is not that bad, there are teams with only 1.5 non-shooters doing just fine" is a very common but statistically immature thought. We are talking about the spacing for our non-shooters. This is the perspective of spacing. You don't need space if you plan to shoot. You need space if you plan to drive or if you want to spend the team's life in the post. It's generally created for players who can't shoot but do other things well. The idea of criticizing the player themselves who can't shoot - let's say Dwayne Wade - for affecting the spacing is a severe misunderstanding of the whole concept. You're doing this BECAUSE he can't shoot. Spoelstra doesn't sit and thing about whether this can ever work, he just plays Bosh mostly at C and asks him to develop more range.

Jalen Green plays with Brooks, FVV, Jabari/or/Amen and Sengun. Green plays with 1 or 2 total non-shooters completely ignored at the 3PT line. Last season, Brooks was almost in that category too.

Sengun plays with 4 players who are at bare minimum poor shooters on a high volume. So your worst shooter is Jalen who makes 33% at Damian Lillard's volume. That's your worst shooter and you can voluntarily up his % by telling him to pass off on those shots to better shooters. Essentially Sengun normally plays with 0 totally ignored non-shooters and recently with 1 total non-shooter - Amen.

These two are playing in different spacing. Now I understand we're doing this because Sengun has earned it. But that doesn't mean it's not happening or that Amen/Jalen wouldn't also benefit from 1 additional spacer. I don't think you realize 1 more spacer is 25% of all the spacers. It's not small. It's statistically significant. It won't transform everything but it will make every single drive slightly easier and the way it works is those add up to a few extra points. A few extra points without affecting your defense is a gigantic move of the needle for a team that hasn't changed the roster.

What shocks me most is we are the team that pioneered this to the max and everyone criticized us and now everyone runs it. Even Rudy you can argue was doing this when he was playing a shooter at the 4 more than anyone in the NBA at the time. Then Morey comes and expands this idea to the point where we almost unseat the most talented team in NBA history - Durant's Warriors - with only James Harden and a declining CP3.

Very important: I do not advocate for trading Sengun. What I advocate for is being patient with his 3PT shot because the day that comes online it will have massive statistical value for the team and we'll see an "unexpected" jump in offensive efficiency that the old heads will attribute to experience or "makin' shats!". Even if you don't like Green, it's our duty to give it to Amen at the very least you must agree HE deserves it especially since he's earned it in this junky offense.

Further Sengun is one of my favorite players and this would make him compatible with any superstar rather than with particular superstars - this helps the team in the much bigger picture of winning a championship. If you're compatible with most, then a star becomes available every 6-18 months. If you're not, it might take 5-6 years and it might be an unideal fit (Dwight, Westbrook). I don't want him to be one of those players you keep pairing with stars that don't fit. This reality is very cushy for him right now, one day there will be a voice on the roster that will say to get Sengun out of the paint and if that player is more efficient they will move him out the paint. Once he's out the paint, he will struggle badly to prevent his defender from harassing his new scoring teammate on drives. We've seen this cliche story play out so many times in the NBA. I believe Sengun can be in that tier where anyone can fit next to him because he has the passing and all he needs is what Sabonis is doing (37% on like 1.5 attempts for almost 2 years now, enough for defenses to not leave him wide open at the 3PT line and harass Fox).

I wonder, do they think it's a coincidence Westbrook in his decline is seeing a resurgence playing next to a Sengun with a 3PT shot?

Fox? Ja? Giannis? Coincidence they play with C's and systems 100% designed to create space for them and they can't really shoot?

What about Ant declining DRAMATICALLY in FTA's and drives this season to become a shooter? Doubled his volume of 3's and shooting almost 40% - it's not enough because now the team is lacking in elite 2PT creators so the record drops.

How many examples does one need to accept there is a door that's going to open for us and it's - even more - going to make you feel like we don't need to add anything to this recipe but a better offensive system (preferably Kings system which is less shooting-dependent) and improve shooting around the stars. Amen and Sengun have to improve their 3PT shooting and they will. Green just needs to take less, there needs to be someone in the lineup who can take 3-4 attempts off him so he can be more selective and achieve a more respected % in scouting reports.

TL;DR version: there's a big gift waiting for us which doesn't cost us anything but learning a new system at training camp.

 

@Mathloom Aa my post above shows. They are trying to create space for both Sengun and Green to operate.

 

Thanks for the pics.

Spacing will still be a problem if the defense does not respect Amen's corner shot. You can see that his guy is already cheating all the way to just outside the paint. Either Sengun or Green drives will certain meet at least two defenders in the paint. One way to beat that cheating is for Amen to creep closer to the dunker spot. He can easily slip past the defender for the lob. It will get more defensive attention than staying in the corner.

 

People want to give credit to Morey but I think it was Morey watching One Tree Hill in 2009 after coming back from a Buble concert.
8 yr old whooping "Skills" Taylor on the Wii. Skills: "This isn't fair. All you do is shoot threes." Kid: "3 is greater than 2"
Skills gets the idea to run an offense of nothing but threes to get his team to the playoffs.
Not only is Morey a LIAR but he is unoriginal. A copycat.


I'll say it again. Dary Morey is a liar!

man I need more Morey and Harden beef. lol