Is Shane Battier one of the best role players ever?

Per Durvasa:

"Actually, Snyder's +/- has been consistently low throughout the year even though his individual numbers are pretty good (for a role player). If Battier is merely average, is Snyder really that far below average?"

I have high hopes for Snyder. He is tall, athletic and strong. He reminds me of a tall Mobely or Jame Posey. He can be a difficult matchup. He is quick.

I think he can at least help us defensively. He slashed to the basket in the Detroit game I think-strong to the basket. My favorite basketball a la Vernon Maxwell or Clyde Drexler. Do not get me wrong- my expectations for Snyder are less than Drex or Posey-I have high hopes....

Snyder may be more helpful defensively than his numbers indicate....

 

03-04: = -15.3 (Gasol = -.1 // Swift= -13.3)
04-05: = -11.2 (Gasol = +24.1 // Swift = + .8)
05-06: = +22.1 (Gasol = +12.0 // E. Jones = + 15.2 // Warrrick = +14.6)

I can already see the "but the games wouldn't have been as close" comments from The Intangibles...

The absolute best and most profound comment in this thread. Precisely why I have given up trying. My compliments to you for an incredible effort.

Early in college, a philosophy professor mentioned in one of my classes that "if you accept the premise, you buy the bit". If you accept the premise of intangibles...there is no counter-argument. Piles of miniscule data will be heaped upon the non-believing until they relent.

That's why for me, 2nd playoffs is the only yardstick to measure with.

 

For Battier, that is. I'm sure you don't hold Yao or McGrady to that standard.

 

What's your point? McGrady and Yao can get into the playoffs with Mike James, Bob Sura, David Wesley, Jon Barry, and Ryan Bowen. Mr Intangibles can't improve upon them?

 

We got to the first round the year before McGrady came over. I guess he didn't help the team any?

Also, this notion that we'd essentially be the same team we were in 04/05 if we didn't make the trade is bogus. The rest of the conference is better, our guard play and perimeter defense wouldn't have been as good, and we'd be a far more turnover-prone team. Without the Battier trade, we might 45-50 wins and a first round exit is a reasonable projection. With the Battier trade, we'll more likely win 50-55 games, and our chances of getting past the first round are far better (though, this year, nothing is guaranteed). This season, San Antonio, Dallas, Utah, and Phoenix all figure to have 50+ wins. It's possible that we'll have a successful season and still not have homecourt advantage in the first round.

 

I think you cannot just compare Battier-Yao-McGrady (no Snyder) with Snyder-Yao-McGrady (no Battier), you cannot assume all other players are equal in production. hayes >> howard for example.

 

Too bad. You should have been here when the 2004 rankings came out....it wasn't pretty:

http://bbs.clutchfans.com/showthread.php?t=81561&page=1&pp=20&highlight=rosenbaum

 

You know, Ryan Bowen wasn't exactly a bad defensive player, in spurts. Problem was he was a complete liability on offense, and he couldn't give you more than 20 minutes a game. He was also too slow to guard most wing players.

Battier is a better defensive player, gets more steals/blocks/charges, he can give you 35+ minutes a game, and he's a competent offensive player as well.

 

Battier will go into the role player hall of fame.

 

True. I think Hayes is another difference maker. Snyder has only played 17 minutes with him on the season. He's been saddled by playing with Juwan and Padgett.

 

McGrady and Yao are not impact defensive players. Yao's weaknesses (poor reaction time, slow feet) pretty much cancel out his strengths defensively. And McGrady simply is not that involved on defense. And your explanation that the reason his +/- numbers looks good is that he's playing with them makes little sense. Why aren't their defensive On/Off numbers even better (or, at least, a net positive)?

 

I heard this analogy once for a soccer player:

"He is the best player in the world without the ball"

Not sure if it was a criticism or a compliment.

It is fun to watch Shane at the Toyota Center. You can see him do a lot of things, even if he does not even touch the ball in a play. Watching him on TV: kinda boring.

 

I don't know if Shane is the the best role player mankind has seen,but I do know he might be the only role player traded for the 8th pick in the draft.

 

If you don't see the difference between going out in a whimper against the Lakers and missing the 2nd round by coming within a BS call that allowed Finley to come back in bounds...nothing I can type can change that.

The conference got tougher? And Yao hasn't imroved? And Hayes and Snyder and/or Head aren't an upgrade over Wesley? Curiously, if in fact the conference got tougher...it wasn't $Ball that drove the talent level up in the WC. It was drafting, internal player development and recognition of players that hadn't been getting playing time...the Barbosa's of the league...more than $Ball.

I'm just not going to go on an 82games archealogical dig with you. Pointless. If you want to believe the 2006-07 Rockets with a healthy McGrady and Yao aren't a playoff team with or without Battier...you're entitled to your opinion.

As for me...the Rockets management rolled the dice with "Win Now". They made their bed and you're in there sleeping with them.

 

Why are some of y'all so hell-bent on putting down one of our players (I'd understand if it was Howard, but...)?

 

I assume you have followed Grant during his days with the Bulls and the Magic. So tell me what aspect of Rodman's game is better than Grant during their peak, other than the rebounding?

Rodman was not even a starter with the Pistons during their title years. Later, he changed himself into a ONE dimensional player, and he was always a distraction to the team anywhere he has been since then. Yes, he was a great rebounder, a very good defender, but no one other than the Bulls were able to get it work for them, and the guy is a liability on the offense.

When he was with the Bulls, Horace average more than 10rb a game with almost 4 on the offensive glass, he was a great post defender, may not have as many tricks as Rodman does, but a very foundamental sounded defender. He had a very reliable mid-range jump shot, which was key to the Bulls' first three title runs.

Oh, btw, the Bulls signed Rodman because they lost Grant to the Magic, he was their first option.

 

LOL ... hate to side with Sammy and dispute with durvasa, but that's some damning evidence out there against crooked way of stats manipulation without interjection of common sense.

 

Actually, these numbers kind of make sense.. Young players, even VERY talented ones, tend to have negative +/- because of their mistakes.

People complain that these young talent (Yao, Melo, etc) get underrated by the analysis. However, the numbers is not a indication of talent or production in terms of scoring, it's about how you complement the other 4 guys on the floor, how you "make your teammates better"-- whether by scoring, passing, ball-handling, or defending. And many of the talented youngsters don't really do that as well as a good veteran role player. Their mistakes often outweight their production.

For example, the Rockets in 04/05 looked like a better team most of the season when Mutombo was in there for Yao Ming. Problem was Mutombo could only go 15-20 mpg tops.

Of course, this is no to say that if you can dominate by putting out a lineup of, say, Earl Waston, Bruce Bowen, Shane Battier, Jason Collins, and Francisco Elson. You still need some sort of scorer/creator.



The art is in the mixing and matching.

 

Exactly my point. There is a difference, despite us still not getting past the first round.

Yao has improved, McGrady has regressed. I think the Yao/McGrady combination is arguably less effective now than it was 2 years ago, because by running the offense through Yao we've been much more turnover prone.

As for the role players, no Alston/Snyder/Head are not upgrades over Barry/James/Sura/Wesley that season. Hayes is a big plus this year ... incidentally, he is a pretty good example of "$ball" applied well. A low usage, high efficiency player who makes way more positive plays than negative plays. Like Battier.

Never said that. In fact, I said they were likely a playoff team without Battier -- a first round exit playoff team. With Battier, they have a much better shot of advancing.

 

I think SamFisher actually found those rating interesting. He's saying the reaction wasn't pretty, not the actually data.