Is Shane Battier one of the best role players ever?

I don't get all this love for Shane Battier. Sorry, I just don't.

I am all for intangibles. And when I watch the games, yes I do see the things that Battier purports to bring to the table. But if you're gonna tell me intangibles is worth more than, say... 14/8, I'd tell you you're full of ****.

And that's the bottom line. Battier's intangibles ISN'T better than 14/8. I'd take the numbers (assuming they are gotten in the flow of our game) any day.

For example, last couple of games when Battier put up trash stats, some here were saying, "well, he drew 3 charges. Betcha didn't see that did ya?"

Well I did. And my answers is, so what? Let's assume that both teams shoot 50% (which most teams don't night in night out), then at best you contributed 2 points. One (50% of a basket) on the offensive end and one for the extra possession you got. The only tiny advantage is the extra foul on the opposing player.

And there you have it. Battier's 3 intangibles which everyone loves to rave about turns into at best 3 points. Of course, he only got 5/5 in that Memphis game.

Tell me again how much that is better than 14/8.

 

Shane Battier is not a great role player, let alone one of the greatest.

A great role player does two things. First, he utilizes team resources and make big plays, like penetrate, finish at the rim and make big baskets etc... possessions are team resources and a player taking up them will bear the responsibility attached. Robert Horry is a great role player because he makes big shots. This part of game has not been very visible in Battier's game. Second, a great role player creates team resources by hustling, snatch the loose balls and draw charges... which Battier does adequately but nothing too great. So when he doesn't have half of the game of a great role player, and the other half of his game is not so great, how the hell can he be considered as a great role player?

 

You guys are asking too much. Battier does not hustle, run down loose balls, and draw charges merely adequately, he does them exceptionally well. Moreover, Battier ranked 2nd in steals, 2nd in blocks, 3rd in assists, but last in turnovers (translate: 1st in assist-to-turnover ratio) as a starter on the current Rockets team. Other little things include help on defense, boxing out, tipping rebounds to teammates.

I do agree he needs to be a little more assertive on offense, a little more active inside the paint, and shoot better from free throw line.

Yao doesn't call Battier comrade for nothing. Anybody who is qualified to be Yao's comrade cannot be bad role player.

 

I think people severely underestimate the number of good role players around the league whose “intangibles” are just as good, if not better than Battier (David Lee, Anderson Varejao, Raja Bell, Derek Fisher, Bruce Bowen, James Posey, etc.).

Basically every team in the league has their own Battier. There’s nothing special about him that separates him from your run-of-the-mill overachiever. I think that fact that he’s a smart, likeable, hardworking guy has totally clouded the judgement of many people.

 

Drawing charges isn't all that Battier does. He contests more shots and gets more deflections than any other player on the team. His versatility on defense is a huge asset. He also had 4 offensive rebounds last game, including one off a missed free throw. Offensive rebounding is something he can do more of.

His offensive production has been dissapointing early in the season, I'm not going to deny that. You can generally count on him to be close to 50% from the field and 40% from three, but that hasn't been the case this year. But overall, he's a big upgrade over any role players we had last year.

14/8 isn't necessarily that great. Those happen to be the numbers Antoine Walker had in Dallas in the 03/04 season. But Dallas actually played far better when he was off the court (and, no, he wasn't Dirk's backup that year) that season. With Battier, you can usually count on high-efficiency, low-mistake basketball on offense, and a significant improvement in overall team defense. I'd rather have that than what Antoine Walker would provide.

 

shane should just camp on the side just a little bit above the 3 pt. line! thats his forte! shooting 3's on the side pocket!

 

dude... he can score 14/8 at will if he shoots more and JVG occasionally set up play for him.. that means he will take away attemps from other players... in which case he doesnt contribute at all compare to 3 charges. Hell, he can score 25 points a game if he takes 30 shot attempts? dont u see the irony?

 

As usual, nothing but a weak one line response of no substance from you. You never fail to disappoint, Jackie.

 

That's pretty good sub-classification of some of the best non-star players. They are/were specialists who played their specialties better than others. Still, like "Jack of all Trades" players, specialists are role players. As for Battier, he is also a Master of charge-takers.

 

I agree with you. Battier is an excellent defender, and don't forget, was chosen over Bowen for the Olympic squad. For every block and charge he takes, the opposing team gets 2 less points. How many games have we won by a small enough margin that Battier made the difference? He's a major part of why we're winning close games and will continue to.

 

Exactly! There is no way his so called "intangibles" are that valuable. I would much rather have a 14/8 guy like a Mo Pete or Andre Iguodala. these Guys produce, get their team points and rebounds, which takes skill. Anyone has the ability to take a charge or hustle. Battier is just not great at anything else so he can focus his game on things like chasing down loose balls.

I personally have been a little disappointed with the way he has played so far. I expected him to step up a little more offensively. He has had such a significant drop of from his days at Duke. It's like he's settled for being a role player in the NBA. I would rather him average a few more points and rebounds. His defense is also a little overrated. I have said this before and I have still not seen him shut anyone down defensively. Hes not a liability but he's really not the stud everyone portrayed him as being. He's basically an average role player, no way the best of all time. He's an average NBA player, and there are many like him throughout the league.

 

Would you rather have a 14/8 guy , who needs to 20 shots per game to get his 14 and a liability on defense ? Just some food for thought.. that's all.

 

Just like in Memphis.

The standard for Shane is so minimal and elusive (intangible) that it is impossible to counter his fans because "the things he does do not show up in stat sheets." My question is why don't they. Points are not the only stats. Rebounds, steals, blocks, %'s, etc. He is a low mistake player. He is a good player. He does not hurt your team.

 

I find Battier doesn't have many intangibles following the reasoning of Battier supporters. Blocks and charges taken are tangibles. No?

Equating a block or charge to 2 less points for the opposing team is mind boggling. Nobody knows if the opposing team is gonna score on a particular possession. It can be a 2 point play or no play, if it's no play, it could be an defensive rebound that leads to a fast break for us.

All this Battier can average 14 pts talk is mute. Although maybe Battier has the ability to do so, he hasn't shown the drive to score this much since his rookie season. I wonder if he shies away from the responsiblity of taking more shots. Again, he might also really believe that despite JVG asking him to take more shots, less shots for him are better for the team. He'd rather let guys like Alston take more shots. It doesn't look very good on his confidence.

One thing is for sure, Shane prides himself in doing whatever the team needs him to do. However, when we need role players to step up and score or make scoring plays in droughts, Shane didn't step up. He cannot do whatever the team needs him to do. He either lacks the game or else he shies away from responsiblity under pressure.

The Rockets have been a top defensive team over the years, Battier's impact on defense is only marginal. His impact on offense is very limited, compared to his heavy minutes, and based on his passiveness on offense.

 

Again it would depend on definition of a role player. Usually it means a player who's talents are marginalized (my new favorite word ) to a degree that they do 1-2 things well and not so much in others areas. And its usually termed for the guys who don't figure much into the scoring column but are commended for adding the other things.

It can mean a one/two dimensional guy with those skills being great assets (Steve Kerr, Bruce Bowen), players who come in for one purpose (Steve Novak, Vinnie Johnson, Jerome Williams). Or players who don't have plays run for them but still are effective - whether they do scrappy type work or pick up 'garbage' points (Cedric Ceballos, excellent example of the garbage points, Shane Battier, Robert Horry). Thats the meaning to me at least

 

I was tracking detailed defensive stats for the first 5 games of the season, but out of laziness I stopped doing that. It was useful to see who the most active defenders were. Shane Battier does not have a "marginal impact" on defense. He's easily the most active defender on the team.

 

It's nice for you to at least try.

I would say Ryan Bowen might be more active than Battier on defense, you know, he is fearless and hustle all the time. Still, Bowen usually didn't bring anything more than marginal impact on defense. Keep in mind, Bowen played good man on man defense on Dirk in the playoffs, while Battier couldn't defend Dirk well.

The Rockets are a top defensive team with or without Battier. What the Rockets need most on defense is stopping the guard penetration. Battier is a forward, not a guard.

Battier's overall impact is marginal. The Rockets were 20-10 last season when Yao and T-Mac were healthy. They could beat the average teams and lost to the good ones.

It's the same story this season. We have beaten the average teams and lost to the good ones. 9-4 is very close to 20-10. Keep in mind, we have more help this year:

1. Yao is a lot better than he was during the 20-10 stretch.
2. Chuck Hayes and Luther Head both improved.

Overall, I find Battier's impact pretty marginal.

 

Tha may be, but the Rockets were already one of the top team defenses in the league before Shane came. like someone said earlier, his effect on defense is only marginal because they were already pretty good. What the team has been lacking in recent years was offense and he is effecting the game very little on that side of the ball

 

Points allowed per 100 possession

With Battier playing: 100.1
With Battier resting: 109.2

I wouldn't say the team defense has looked great without Battier. In fact, it looked pretty bad whenever Battier rests.

Also, last year's team D was not all that good. They did not allow a high fg%, but they allowed a lot of open 3 pt shots and free throws. It was pretty average as far as overall defensive efficiency... which, by the way, is a fairly good result considering how undersized the team was with McGrady and/or Yao injured. David Wesley even played some minutes at SF.

In case anyone thinks his numbers this year are a fluke based on just 13 games...

2005-2006 Memphis opponent Points per 100 posession:

Battier on the floor: 100.9
Battier on the bench: 107.9

2004-2005 Memphis opponent points per 100 posession:
Battier on the floor: 101.9
Battier on the bench: 107.9

 

Lol, 'ever'?


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