How did they save going forward? Could they not have gotten those same savings this summer? Because the deal they got wasn't that great. They got Lamb, a teen pick in a weak draft and other picks that aren't projected to be good. They could have easily traden Harden for something like that this summer. No they aren't. You just match and trade him. Any team willing to sign him will have the capspace to trade for him. I doubt Morey would have any issues trading Harden now for what he gave up and extra pieces.
I would go with that if we were playing in an era where C's weren't so weak and if they didn't have a young PF too. And even if one had to be let go, which he didn't because he was yours at your price with a trade kicker, you still had until next summer to trade him.
You think the Rockets would be the ONLY team that would be after Harden at the deadline? It's not my place or position to say WHO would be in the mix. Nor is it yours. The only thing I would say is all the teams that were looking to get better. Teams like Toronto and Milwaukee for example. Boston, Atlanta, Sacramento, Dallas, and Utah all are teams. They like Bigs so much, how about Jefferson? A lot of teams were looking to get better at the deadline. Had Harden been there more than two most likely. Also the draft pick was a mistake. This is a horrible draft most likely, and going after a draft pick in this draft doesn't do much. And no bottom dwelling team is going to give you their top 5 pick...but you know what? They probably would after seeing their pick (Waiters...) for half a year for Harden. You never actually know. What we do know is that teams get desperate around the trade deadline though. That is from Morey himself, he feeds off the trade deadline knowing some team is going to make that desperation move. Teams do it every season. Look at how Orlando fleeced Milwaukee..A team that was simply just trying to get better and desperately so.
Exactly. That's exactly it. If you have Harden leading the bench you don't have to spend much on the bench because Harden...like Chris Bosh...is at least capable of carrying a bench unit of old vets and unproven late 1st/2nd round picks for a few minutes each game. It's more room for error as well. So if someone tweaks something or gets hurt you have this other guy who can step up. If someone is having a bad series you have this other guy. Let's not forget that Harden was the x-factor for a few playoff series for the Thunder. Laker and Spurs fans were ecstatic that the Thunder broke up that trio and really that says it all right there.
In terms of the draft, Presti has the advantage. The talent scouting of OKC's front office is top notch. Durant, Ibaka, Westbrook, Jackson, etc. They also traded for high draft picks to get the players they need. Morey's only draft success is Parsons. The rest he either signed or traded for AFTER they had a chance to play in the league.
http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=238474 Since when has Artest ever been considered a locker room cancer? Not to be mean, but you sound totally ignorant as to the kind of player Monta Ellis is.... I said the 3 of them had overlapping skills which leads to redundancy, and that's true. There's nothing that Harden brings to the table that Westbrook or Durant don't also bring. Yeah, Kendrick Perkins. Let's not forget that en route to the finals last year, they did not face Memphis, and LAL had not yet acquired Howard.
If that's the case, I see no point in debating with you. It's easy to make a blanket statement like "they could have gotten a better deal!!!" when you're not even going to try to hypothesize one. What could any of them offer that would appeal to OKC? Jefferson is an expiring this year, and he's only 28 years old. He's going to make at least $10mm per year for his next contract. OKC wouldn't be able to afford re-signing him. That's why the Martin trade was so good. Martin filled the same role as Harden did (albeit to a much lesser extent, but that disparity is mitigated by Durant's improvement), and he's 30 years old. That means that OKC should be able to re-sign him at a cheaper deal.
Michael Jordan. Who cares? **** like this happens all the time in a locker room and Sanders called the dude out. What would you expect him to do? Depends on your defintion of 'Locker room cancer'. A guy who does things off the court and causes distractions and extra curricular stuff...you want to talk about cancers? How about a guy like JR Smith? As do you. Honestly if you think Perkins played a big role in the Thunder making the finals I really don't know what else to say. What is Perkins doing that's so invaluable against Memphis again? Seriously? Perkins? The last game the guy went 1-5 for 2 points and 2 rebounds. Memphis Front court...46 points for 23 rebounds. If Perks role is to be the big stopper he's been doing a horrible job of it. Asik was tearing the guy up. So much so that Brooks started to play Collison more (who is btw the better player) by the end of the series. The only thing Perkins has done well is play defense against Dwight Howard because he gets under his skin.
It's not a blanket statement. It's from Morey that teams get desperate around the deadline. That is from Morey. Not me. They didn't get anything of worth out of their current deal except Jeremy Lamb. You really think they couldn't have done better than just Jeremy Lamb? Or are we going to talk about how great of a draft pick they have that's going to be around the 12th pick in a bad draft or Kevin Martin whose expiring and most of the fans don't want back anyways? Lamb is the only thing they have got of value back and they are going to have to hope that he does pretty darn well to make up for what they gave up. Millsap, Jefferson, Ellis, Tobias...those first three are better players than Martin. Jefferson would be a perfect fit for that team and at least he'd make Randolph/Gasol work. Millsap too. Sacramento has a higher pick. Boston doesn't have much, ATL had Josh Smith who they probably could have resigned for less than Harden. Utah would have been the perfect fit. They have terrible guards. Not one of them is starter material outside of maybe Burks (who they like to not play all the time) and have too many quality bigs that they can't play them all. It was well known they were shopping their bigs. I think Jefferson could have gone to OKC and he's perfect for a 3rd fiddle role. Also that the salaries would mean that OKC could probably unload a bad contract (PERKINS) while getting back a expiring and good player in Jefferson. The draft pick is irrelevant. A 12th projected pick is not valuable in any draft much less the 2013 draft. Lol they may not even resign Martin. They can resign him to a cheaper deal but that's because he's not worth as much as Jefferson would get. Being cheaper is not better. Hopefully Morey realizes this and gives Parsons his money before he hits the open market.
Not many teams wanted to give up good pieces for Harden on a max deal. Presti couldn't be sure that Morey would still have the same pieces and enough cap space a year and a half later. People aren't paying enough attention to how many teams refused to give up young talent for a maxed out Harden after he had the best season he could probably have as a 6th man which is what he would have been this year on the Thunder. Presti has proven that he is a good evaluator of young talent so I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt on Lamb being good.
Michael Jordan may have caused a divided locker room, but his basketball skills were good enough to compensate. Monta Ellis' skills aren't. A locker room cancer is a guy who causes dissent in the locker room. I don't recall Artest ever having that reputation. NY already has $76mm in salary next year. I dont think they would want to take on an additional ~14mm. Yeah, all that, and the games have been surprisingly close despite losing Westbrook. In fact, I think that if Westbrook were playing, OKC would've won the series.
Ellis is much better than Martin. It's not even because of the numbers, it's because Ellis shows up in the clutch and if you give him open shots in the clutch he's going to knock them down more likely than not...and he's going to want to take those shots. Martin does not. Ellis has had several clutch moments throughout his career...Martin has... No I mean that JR Smith as a locker room cancer. He was definitely that. Guys usually are not if they are on a better team. Heck Rondo could probably be considered as one. When you are on a team that is playing for a championship though, it's more pressure to be a model teammate. Martin has not been the model teammate throughout his career either. I'm sure he is now though. It would have been closer...but Memphis still has the tools to beat that team with or without Westbrook. Gasol and Zbo still going to feast in the paint. Memphis has great defenders to throw at WB. It wouldn't be a lock for the Thunder that is for sure. Conley is no slouch either.
And that's exactly why Presti didn't wait until the deadline. At the time, the draft pick was valuable b/c Toronto was expected to be garbage. They also got salary relief, and Kevin Martin is a great 6th man (as long as Durant or Westbrook is also on the court). First of all, Tobias Harris doesn't belong on that list. Based on his career up till the Feb 2013 trade deadline, OKC wouldn't have wanted him. OKC wouldn't be able to re-sign Jefferson so he wouldn't make sense for them. Millsap is undersized, and OKC already has Ibaka and Collison. It wouldn't make sense for them to re-sign Millsap at ~8mm/yr (?) when they're already fairly deep at the PF position. Ellis is a locker-room cancer who would sacrifice team ball just to inflate his own stats. OKC wouldn't want that. Josh Smith already turned down a $45mm/3 year extension. It's safe to say OKC couldn't afford to pay him what he wants. See? It's pretty hard to come up with a trade scenario that OKC would agree to. Tipjar wager? $20 says OKC does re-sign Martin.
Who cares if Martin doesn't want to take clutch shots? Are you aware that OKC already has Westbrook and Durant? You really need to stop and consider what kind of player OKC wants. Do they want a fearless chucker who shoots less than 30% from the 3pt line? Or do they want a player who will play within the offense and shoot around 40% from the 3pt line? Yeah, JR Smith was a locker room cancer. Where did it take him? He became a quasi-journeyman. Even with all his talent, he's making less than $3mm this season. What has Rondo won since he developed an ego? If anything, his clashes with Ray Allen contributed to Allen joining the Heat. Established players in their prime aren't going to change their mentality. Monta Ellis isn't going to stop being a cancer just b/c he goes to a contending team.
Not sure why you left Lamb out of the analysis. Tobias Harris not worth more than Lamb+Toronto pick+Dallas Pick.
If Presti is worried about himself being among the desperate GMs then that would say he's overrated right? He becomes the prey and not the predator. Morey has been the predator, waiting for teams to go into desperate mode at the deadline like they do every year. I guess...but most knew the draft was not going to be good. It's also dependent on whether Toronto would be good or not and not everyone thought that they would be horrible. A few said they would be decent... Salary relief doesn't mean much when you have a contending team. Martin is a decent 6th man. Crawford, Smith, Jarrett Jack, Miller, Nate Robinson...much better. 6th man needs to be more than just some guy that fills up stats. Needs to be a guy you can rely on at the end of a game too. Tobias wasn't really this big secret. He was one of those guys that just didn't get PT for one reason or another. Bucks were desperate like the Raptors to just improve and gave him up for what could be a rental. We really don't know that since they were close to resigning Harden but Harden and his agent were trying to squeeze all they can out of the deal. Harden expected to sign, that's from his own words and then big bad Presti gave him the mob offer of 24 hours to decide or whatever and we should thank Presti for that. Millsap is better than Perkins. Perkins is a non-factor. Collison can play C in todays NBA, they can also sign a better vet Center than Perkins for much less than what they are paying him now. It was a huge mistake not to amnesty him to help sign Harden. Ellis is a scorer and gunner. It's not about team stats. You can say that but this dude went on a pretty great stretch of games later in the year where he pretty much did everything. Rocket fans should know, he just took over the game on offense and defense and won his team the game. Martin has been the stat-padder. The guy who gets 21 points in a half, makes another two threes in the 3rd quarter to finish off with 27 points and gets to listen how people go on about how he had a good game. Players that shy away from the game when you need them are pretty bad...especially if they are shooters. Would rather have Reddick. In fact OKC should sign Reddick or Korver as they will probably go for around the same price than Martin and will be able to do the same thing he does. Josh Smith doesn't want to play in Atlanta. It's not always about money. Again Harden was supposedly close to a deal until Presti let his ego get in the way and forget that this was all a business. I don't make bets or wagers. But again. Korver and Reddick are both better options than Martin. A guy who shies away from clutch shots and mostly doesn't make them.
Because your role players need to show up at playoff games too. That's why. Championships also come down to your role players hitting big shots. Martin does not. Fisher, Big shot Bob. The Spurs. Grizz...Bulls...all have clutch role players who make shots. This is why Fisher continues to get a job. Because he makes big shots. Man his stats mean nothing if he can't do it when they need it. It's got him on a pretty good team and he seems to be behaving better and not being a locker room cancer. Rondo has been fine. It's his aging team that's been the problem. And I guess Martin isn't going to ever start being clutch either. The Thunder could actually use a chucker...isn't that what eveyrone accuses WB of? It's not like they have too many chuckers. Even with WB they have Durant, WB, and Martin...that's it...oh and Martin oft times will stop shooting in the 4th. Nah I didn't leave out lamb. I said that is all they got. Toronto pick is projected 12th in a weak draft. Dallas pick is a complete unknown at this point. So they basically gave up a known all-star team USA player at 23 years for a bunch of complete unknowns. That was basically the deal they got. How many contending teams build for the future? That's just a bad move. That move makes sense for a team trying to contend...but they were there already. I mean Miami could trade Bosh for the future but why do that? It's like the Spurs trading Parker for future pieces...why? You have a contending team now. Ride with them.
What're you talking about? By trading Harden a year before he has to, Presti ensured that he was the predator. Had he waited until Feb 2013, he would've had to take the best lowball offer or lose Harden for nothing. Once again, you fail to consider OKC's roster. OKC will always have either Westbrook or Durant on the court so they don't need another creator like Crawford/Jack/Nate/Smith. They want someone who can play within the offense, hit open shots, and move without the ball. Martin does that. Most of the guys you mentioned do not. Harden wanted a trade kicker, and Presti didn't. I interpret that as Presti being aware that Westbrook/Durant would eventually make Harden expendable and that he'd eventually have to trade Harden. So in the playoffs, you'd be comfortable with Collison guarding Marc Gasol or Dwight Howard? Perkins fits OKC much better than Millsap. In fact, they don't need Millsap at all b/c they have Ibaka and Collison.
But they were only going to have Harden for one more year. If they had him locked up reasonably for the long term they wouldn't have traded him. They also didn't want a trade kicker that would make him harder to trade if he wasn't worth close to max money as a 6th man. The deal they got is the best one that was available at the time and probably the best one they would have got the next year. I'm sure there are several teams that would have given Harden a max contract if he had another great year with the Thunder this year. I'm sure there are several teams that would have given up young pieces for Harden before this season. Unfortunately for the Thunder, there weren't many teams that were willing to do both. Presti had no reason to believe that the market would be better for Harden if he was their 6th man again. As a matter of fact, things would have likely been worse because Harden could forced him into a situation where he had to match a max deal. Presti made a deal at a time when he knew he would have the most control over the situation.
