Is Princeton's Goodrich Going to be a Camp Darling?

heypartner · Sep 26, 2002

<blockquote><i>originally posted by JR</i>

On a separate matter, and again, this does not mean that I want the Rockets to run a Princeton offense, I think the amount of time devoted to practice in the NBA is a joke. It's easier to teach kids a system in college? They are limited to x hours a week of practice. NBA players get PAID to play, and to practice. That is their job. There is plenty of time in the schedule to get practices in.</blockquote>

And this is ultimately the core problem with the NBA. They play way too many games. They say this in Europe as well, that they have the luxury of less games and more practice time.

JR,

What is your description of the King's offense? I've been describing it as a Zipper offense in basic structure (see Germany's legendary coach...I forget his name). More of a double high post used to flatten zones, rather than attempt to confuse them with an array of picking and cutting like Princeton.

Also, do you live in Houston? Are you going to be our Goodrich connection if we find a mini-Ming position for him here. I like the idea of him being a friend and player-teacher for Ming.

As for our non-existent fastbreak: Nothing frustrates me more, either. Something is not getting communicated to Francis. He doesn't come get the outlet, and he runs the wings. I'm not about to defend Rudy on that one.

RocketsPimp · Sep 26, 2002

Originally posted by heypartner
JR,

What is your description of the King's offense?
Click to expand...

I don't mean to answer for JR, but I'd call it a high-triangle-post hybid because Vlade and Webber spend alot of time roaming the stripe shooting 18-20 footers while Peja, Bibby, etc run around picks and screens.

heypartner · Sep 26, 2002

Pimp, things that aren't "Triangle"ish is the use of a double high post. Also, the Triangle is relatively static on the weakside. It's signature structure, imo, is that it attacks heavily on the strongside. Everything is a complex read of what is happening on the strongside, whereby it forces the defense to choose a lessor of two evils. By contrast, Passing Games like Knight are meant to confuse and force a mistake, by picking and cutting everywhere. To me, that is like a main criteria defining different systems. Is their main goal to: 1) attack the defense (Wooden), or 2) confuse the defense (Knight).

So, when I try to figure out what the Kings are doing, the moment I see weakside picking, such as a down screens by Divac, etc. I become skeptical of it being Triangle based versus Motion based.

Live · Sep 26, 2002

Great thread.

Moving it back to the top.

Jrazz · Sep 26, 2002

Originally posted by heypartner
JR,

Man, pass that along earlier. Take some liberties. Many people would have loved to hear Carril's comments (as well as me).

Please don't stretch this to say that I'm a backwagon Carril fan. I like Knight too, but I'd fully expect him to say that, as well. If you dig deeper with these guys they'll tell you that they recruit specifically to their systems.

JR, I didn't respond right away, because I wanted a day to pass so you don't think I want some petty argument that the BBS has done over and over. Let's talk about Carril, since you know him and the offense. btw: did you ask him what he would run with the Rockets players? Or do you just assume it would be Princeton's offense?

The issue to me is that a lot of NBA fans do not appreciate how hard it can be for NBA coaches to construct complex systems with young players who they didn't really freely recruit like Carril and Knight and Coach K can. Sure they are great teachers, but they also have 2yrs to teach guys before most of them even play much. Next time you see Carril ask him about how important recruiting is to maintaining slick systems. Ask him how important him landing Divac and Webber was to implementing the Kings high post system. Ask him if his boss Eddie Jordan could have implemented that new system in New Jersey without landing Kidd. Why didn't Jordan have that working better with Marbury? Also, ask him if he could run his offense with Kelvin Cato.

There is no chance even Carril could run Princeton's offense with Cato. Ask him about if a shooting guard like Francis could run the Nets offense.

What I have profound appreciation for is not to protect Rudy and the coaches but to know how the coaches go about selecting offensive schemes to get the most out of their players. Rudy chose a 4 out 1 Flex. Nolan Richardson and Billy Tubbs (Blaylock/King) and UNLV were very successful running that with certain teams. Look what one of the most inventive college coaches (Larry Brown) is running in Philly. I actually believe we were pretty darn successful in the second half of 2001.

I honestly, 100%, believe that Rudy and the coaches selected the best system for a Francis and Cato team. But it is not the right system for Ming, so I expect a transition to something different...let's hope Francis agrees. When I challenge Rudy bashing, it is not because I think the offense doesn't need improvement or that I wouldn't want to see the Nets offense or Kings, I challenge Rudy bashing because I think some people believe you can just select any offense you want (like this is a Dreamcast game) and then hit Load Game. Further, it is much harder to flick that switch when the players are boneheads who have to be remedially trained (unlike Goodrich) and constantly taught the same things.

For instance, I remember once last year Rudy saying how frustrating he is that the coaches have to keep drilling fundamentals, and they can't move forward with implementing more complexity.

AT,

That's pretty trite.
Click to expand...

Wow. Weel said. I agree. Thanks

JR · Sep 27, 2002

HP, i am by no means buddies with Goodrich but should he land in Houston I should be able to converse with him on a more than infrequent basis.

As far as the Kings offense, I am not well versed enough in the language to speak to a Zipper versus a Triangle. It certainly is not a traditional Carrill-style Princeton offense -- that would never work in the NBA because of the shot clock and the physicality allowed on the defensive end of the floor. What i do like about the Kings offense is that it does seem to be the most frequent and most effective NBA offense in terms of involving the high post, whether that be Webber or Divac. You really only see traces of a Princeton influence in some of the high post work and baseline cuts with feeds from the high post -- you don't see all the handoffs, continuous (almost frantic) perimeter motion and back cuts that are made based on reading the defender on the perimeter.

Another semi-related point: I am not so hung up on offensive systems that I believe they are the difference between winning and losing in the NBA. I belive offensive systems/philosophy have a huge effect during the first 3 1/2 quarters of a game. However, late in the 4th, it really does seem that even the most well-coached teams leave their fates in the hands of their superstars. This is why, despite the Kings' superiority vis a vis the Lakers with respect to their offensive system and flow, they can't (to this point) beat the Lakers. Their star (Webber) is a poor one-on-one (or one-on-more-than-one) offensive player, while Kobe is the best player on the planet in those situations.

Getting back to Rudy briefly, the fast break problem comprises some 75% of my b****es re: Rudy's coaching. I agree that the personnel on the Rockets for the last year or two did not lend itself to a pleasing, team-oriented style of offensive basketball. I wouldn't have a problem with either the (a) iso-heavy or (b) very, very simplified (e.g. series of 2-man, maybe 3-man, sets/plays) offense as long as the team was taking advantage of its biggest edge: conditioning, speed and athleticism -- that is, getting out and running the f'ing floor! Maddening.

RocketFan007 · Sep 27, 2002

rockets.com is reporting that both Mickeal and Goodrich have been signed to non-guaranteed contracts and will be at training camp next week.

off_welfare · Sep 27, 2002

a camp darling?

heypartner · Sep 27, 2002

<blockquote><hr>Originally posted by off_welfare
a camp darling? <hr></blockquote>
Langhi was the camp darling 2yrs ago, and Torres/Tierre were last year. No one thought Torres/Tierre would make it.

cut Collier, please. Make Goodrich the player-coach for Ming, please.

GO ROCKETS!!

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