Ah, the great debate for our generation. I become a huge NFL fan around the time right before Peyton was drafted, in a sense I feel like my whole journey is tied to him. Watched him since day 1. I've always been a firm believer that Peyton was a better QB than Brady, but after the last two seasons, it remains too hard for me to continue that biased opinion. At some point the numbers don't lie. Peyton was Michael Jordan playing QB in the regular season. He was spectacular. His command of the offense and pre-snap mind****ing was next-level ****. But Tom Brady has 6 Super Bowl appearances, 4 SB wins, 10 AFC title games. He's the most prolific QB of all time in terms of postseason success. Sure, part of that credit goes to Belichick and his ability to coach up guys from West Alabama who can step in and make Super Bowl winning plays. What I saw yesterday was Tom Brady scared ****less. I've rarely seen Tom Brady like that. He was visibly flustered. He was looking to unload the ball and it made him make several ill-advised decisions. I've never seen that from Peyton. I've seen his arm deteriorate to the point he can't even get the ball down the field. I've seen him throw duck after duck. But I've never seen Peyton Manning just flat out lose his **** out there on the field as soon as the ball was snapped and he knew he was toast. I've never seen Tom Brady so relentlessly attacked as he was yesterday. It was almost surreal. Denver knew what they had to do. The Patriots had a non-existent running game since Dion Lewis and Blount went down. It made them one-dimensional. Still, with all that, he still made the throws to get them 2 points away from the tie, and then made a forced throw because he knew the rush was about to take his **** again. A lot of old-timers tell me Montana was the same way. He was surgical in moving the ball down the field, but if he was getting hit he could quickly lose his nerve. Still, Peyton's playoff record is what it is. For whatever reason, he didn't step his game up when he needed to. Even his lone Super Bowl win was not a great performance. To me, there are 4 great QBs. Montana, Elway, Brady, Manning. That is the Mount Rushmore of NFL QBs. Some people might not put Elway on that list, but he did more with less than any other QB for years in Denver. He is the reason the Cleveland Browns are still the Cleveland Browns. I hated Elway like I hate Brady now, but don't give that guy the ball with 2 minutes left in the game. You're toast. 2nd tier would be guys like Johnny Unitas, Dan Marino, Steve Young, Favre, Staubach, etc. Aaron Rodgers is the only QB I see from this current generation who can get close to that echelon, but he'll have to add some more hardware in the next 5 years. What remains hilarious to me is that it for all his success, it has to eat away at Brady deep down (and I know that it does) that Peyton's little brother pulling a couple miracles out of his ass is the sole reason this debate still even exists :grin:
Considering that I was 4 years old at the time, yes, yes I have forgotten Elway's 55-10 SB loss to Montana.
Peyton Manning was putting up prime Marino numbers almost instantly (rare to have a QB hit his stride that early in his career) and consistently (unlike flameouts or system driven guys like Jeff Garcia and Kurt Warner, etc) well before 2006 when the huge rule changes came into effect that put enormous emphasis on the passing game and opened up the offenses. It seems like he was the embodiment of "coach on the field" and basically made an offensive coordinator redundant, if not useless. I can't remember a QB who has ever done that prior to the Rodgers, Brees, Brady explosion post-2006. Yes, his post-season record is below average (provided he loses again, which he probably will). But it's not really a big secret that Peyton's teams had been pretty goddamned awful for most of his career, especially those early Colts teams. Now he's on the ass-end of his career and finally it is the rest of the team that is dragging him through the post-season, and not the other way around. If you believe in the playoff boogieman, naturally you're never going to consider Peyton GOAT material. But I think people really overvalue guys like Montana and Brady. Those guys clearly had tons of help (both in terms of HOF level teammates and HOF level coaches), and when they stepped aside, other people were able to succeed in their places. That was never the case with Peyton. His shadow is literally and figuratively much longer.
That is an argument that holds some weight. You take Peyton Manning away from the Colts, they are a 1-15 abomination to football. But I think it also speaks more to Peyton's influence on the offense than anything. Ok Curtis Painter, just be Peyton Manning out there and we're all set! Yes, Matt Cassel went 11-5 in Brady's place (and missed the playoffs). Is that really such an indictment of Brady? They were coming off a 16-0 season. So is Brady worth 5 wins? I feel sick now, why I am defending this pretty boy ****. Steve Young was arguably better than Montana stats wise when he still had the remnants of the Bill Walsh 49ers around him. He still had pieces around him. When that team started to deteriorate, he couldn't carry them. Brady got his team in position to where the NFL's most clutch kicker could do his thing. That won him 2 rings. The 4th ring, that was mostly Seattle stupidity. Peyton got his ass reamed by that same defense the year before, and more than likely he'll get curb-stomped by Luke Keuchly at some point in about 2 weeks. I'd love to see Peyton win his 2nd SB just to silence the critics, but even if that happens, nobody in their right mind could say that the Broncos won the Super Bowl because they had Peyton Manning.
Lets just ignore that the Rams were a record-setting offense/double-digit favorite for that game (being played indoor on the fast turf). Lets also ignore that that specific game-plan led to wide-spread rule changes regarding illegal contact. Yards allowed have never been a *strength* of BB defenses... but points allowed have. This was the same specific-type of gameplan that also stifled the Montana's 49ers and K-gun Bills, also big favorites to beat Belichick's defenses. And when the team chooses to carry the defensive coordinator off the field, you better well believe he deserves most of the credit for those wins. That's wonderful. What was their win % when the Seahawks were on the one yard line? And they run a play nobody was expecting (which in and of itself, makes it a decent play call)... except the most important people on the field (namely the opposing head coach and defense). I've already listed two where the defense was directly responsible. Care to look up how Brady and the offense did in those games? Nobody said he wasn't in intricate part.. just that Belichick deserves the bulk of the credit for the Pats glorious run of success. Most educated/well-read/and football-experienced people would acknowledge Brady's greatness... but still give a huge chunk of the credit to Belichick. If they had to choose one, they'd likely choose Belichick. I haven't seen anybody even attempt to argue that Belichick is nothing without Brady, but I've seen plenty of valid points made for the contrary. Only a casual amateur sports fan with bias would equate Belichick's coordinator coaching run (taking down 2 of the greatest offenses all-time, which helped lay the groundwork for taking out another one) with that of Kubiak (who only has 2) and Caldwell. Again, they carried D Coordinator BB off the field... not Parcells. You've now moved the narrative of Brady being more impactful than Belicheck to Dungy being better than Belichick? C'mon... Again, not going to see many people out there that wouldn't take Peyton+Belichick over Brady+Belichick... Manning was good enough to not require the greatest coach of all-time to have success. Brady has improved immensely during his career from where he started (his *improvement* exceeds that of Manning who was pretty damn good pretty fast)... and its still reasonable to presume that he doesn't get to where is today (which includes throwing one of the greatest passes of all-time yesterday) without the expertise/stability/gameplanning/and cutting-edge--ahead of the game--possible rule embellishment that his singular coaching regime has provided him.
I think the difference between Peyton and Brady's playoff success has a LOT to do with the fact that Peyton was pandered to by his team. Peyton ALWAYS demanded top flight offensive players. The patriots were just the opposite. They never gave Tom Brady (except when they got moss on the cheap) any receiving help. They built up their team in other ways.
Tom Brady has too many Astericks I mean . . . .If Barry Bonds' Astericks keep him out of the conversation then Tom's has to do the same for him Manning is just IMO not clutch in the post season Hell Tennessee won the National Championship AFTER he left with FRICKING T. MArtin Plays that stand out . . . The Interception against the Saints in the Superbowl The Colts Defense picking up a fumble from the 1 yrd line and taking it to the 50 . . on a leg that his wife had cut him on the night before .. . and Manning could not get them 20 yrds to make the kick more reasonable . . . . . This things stick out for me . . . .Like someone said . . In his lone SuperBowl win . . . the Defense did alot of the work "The Colts forced five (5) turnovers, including cornerback Kelvin Hayden's 56-yard interception return for a touchdown. Indianapolis kicker Adam Vinatieri also converted three (3) field goals. Colts quarterback Peyton Manning was named the game's Most Valuable Player (MVP), completing 25 of 38 passes for 247 yards and a touchdown, with one interception for a passer rating of 81.8." Rocket River
The Colts never spent big bucks on free agent offensive talent. Peyton spent his career turning journeymen and UDFAs into household names. They grew a lot of their own talent. Wayne, James, Garcon, Addai, Clark, etc. Just as much as the Patriots, if not moreso.
Almost all of Peyton's targets were drafted by the Colts. Randy Moss, Wes Welker: Not drafted by the Patriots.
Randy Moss & Corey Dillon were really the only major acquistions I can recall. He had Moss for 2 years, & Dillon for 3 (though Dillon only had the one good year). Peyton's offensive weapons were 1st round draft picks (Harrison, Wayne, James, Clark, Addai, Brown). I think both players made average/mediocre players into pro-bowlers. And for all the crap Brady gets about being a game-manager early in his career, he lead the league in TDs in what was his 1st year as the initial starter.
A man whose career stats are dwarfed by Matt Schaub. Don't believe what old school NFL films tell you, Terry Bradshaw, Joe Namath, and Troy Aikman were just guys along for the ride.
There is Montana and Brady, then everyone else. Not counting a couple of seasons of a pass his prime(still very very amazing)Moss, Brady's top receivers have been Welker, Edelman, and Branch. Montana is 4 for 4 in Superbowls without an interception.
Lets just ignore that Gronkowski, as a receiver, was a better target/weapon than anybody not named Moss. IMO, Montana is the best ever... and with the rule changes/pass-happy offenses, and watered down teams due to salary-cap/expansion, there won't be another QB who was able to do what he did.
