Let's play a hypothetical game here. What if Lin develops into a 16 and 8 guy on 550% true shooting? What if Harden's end result is 25/5/5 on .600%? What if the Parsons we're seeing now, 16/7/4 on .600% is legit? And Asik, 11/12 with elite defense? Is Millsap a good fit then? I say yes. On a team filled with borderline all stars and one top 10 player, I think adding one more borderline all star is enough to make us contenders, as long as we have a good bench. (We all know Morey can find good bench players easily.)
Love Clutchfans, most people only watch Rockets games and start to judge players. Millsap has one bad game against us and Pat happens to have a great night. Only conclusion can be that Millsap sucks and Pat is more valuable and will be better for this team. The "one game" scouts here are awesome.
I want to say damn, are you new here? But then I see you joined in 09 and you still haven't figured it out yet.
Half of the threads here are built on knee jerk reactions. I think Millsap is a good player. I just think that he will cost us more than he is worth because he will not make us a contender. Neither will Josh Smith. Both will be costly in terms of our younger talent and will not improve the team significantly. I really cannot see us pulling off a trade for either. I think it is more likely that we trade a player or two for some more draft picks. Perhaps he will improve the backup pg spot if we find ourselves in the playoff hunt.
At the same price, Milsap is better than Josh Smith and West or Boozer. So, at 12mil per I'd definitely want him. But not max. He is Marion-type complementary player, or Ron Artest and Odom. As such, he is not really priority until Rox finds the 2nd star player next to Harden.
I have figured it out of course, but have to repeat it, especially with the new 12ers. It has been this way for years and it still makes me want to smash my head on a desk.
Too many young kids on CF and the moderation is not very strict. At least they restricted making new threads, that has been a big help, but it would reduce the stupidity if there were more in-thread moderation. Also, the kind of moderation that DOES exist on CF is ridiculous. I got banned from the Texans subforum for saying that the moderation stinks, having committed no other offenses there. When your moderators care more about their own egos than keeping the board in check, that's a sign of serious problems. Another forum I frequent has an infraction system. I think it's something like 2 infractions = temp ban, and too many temp bans you get perma banned. That would be a big help here as well. You aren't allowed to make a thread unless it has some serious content, at least a few paragraphs of good discussion. And if threads start going off track or the conversation gets too inane, the thread is locked. Inevitably, discussion there is very thought provoking and interesting, and trolls don't survive long. Well, maybe I'll get banned here too now for saying this. I don't really care that much, I can still read the threads from some of the better contributors such as durvasa and others, and that's the thing I care about most here. Maybe if enough people complain about the moderation eventually Clutch & co. will crack down and the discussion on CF will improve.
Horace Grant is probably the closest, probably even an Otis Thorpe-type. But I'm not comparing the actual players, but instead the roles that those aforementioned played on the teams. Simply put, in a tied game, if the Rockets need a bucket in the post would they give it to Millsap. Some say yes, others say no. I would lean towards the latter. But the idea is to find an all-star, post threat that can potentially be a closer alongside Harden. I think there's a bigger, pie-in-the-sky PF that Morey has his eyes on.
12 mil a year for Millsap is crazy for us - our core of Lin, Harden, Asik, Millsap would make around 44 millions and be nowhere close to being a contender - we still have to pay Parsons soon and would have no real capspace left. Don't get me wrong, I like Millsap and feel like he is very underrated. And I can see Morey going after him if he comes at a bargain - if for nothing else than as a future trade chip. But to get this team forward we don't need another very good player, we need at least one more star - and as good as Millsap is, he is definetlz no star. So the only way he becomes a Rocket is either, if he comes at a bargain, or if other major moves are made.
You lost me at the part where Paul Millsap was a "borderline all star." The player who is arguably at best an older, shorter, and even less athletic sidegrade (14 PPG, 53% TS) over Patrick Patterson (14.6, 56% TS) is also somehow a borderline all star? Really? Does that mean Patterson is a borderline all star too? I know Jazz fans were lobbying hard for Millsap last season, but it doesn't make it so. This guy is in his seventh NBA season. You are looking at the most Millsap there will ever be. His ceiling is literally Patrick Patterson with a few more boards a night. It's not an "all star" or even a "borderline all star," the implication of which is often that he is an elite player who is getting snubbed due to a logjam of talent at his position or due to political reasons. This is it, man. This is Thrillsap: Unplugged. It gets no better, and it certainly doesn't get "borderline all star" better. There are far better players available than this joker.
This post I find hard to agree with. First of all, Millsap and 2Pat are very different players. One bangs inside and rebounds, the other is more of an outside shooter and finesse player. Millsap, despite his height, plays bigger, rebounds better, and is at least as good a defender if not better. Second, you have to look at Millsap's TS% for his career. This year he's down, but a big part is he's been asked to play 3 more, to facilitate the development of Favors and Kanter, both of whom play PF more so than C. Third, Hollinger's take is that Millsap would've been an all-star had he been in the East. He's also had to share time and shots with Boozer and Jefferson in his career, while for 2Pat this year, he's getting the bulk of the big man's shots (over Asik, rightly so). Fourth, if you look at Millsap's impacts on the game statistically, from +/-, PER or win share, he hands down beats 2Pat and would be ranked 5th best PF in the NBA the last few years. Morey is collecting high +/-, high PER, and high win-share players, in case you haven't noticed. And fifth, to say we are closer to Millsap's ceiling is correct. To say he has ZERO upside at 27 is more than off the mark. People forget Millsap was a 2nd round 40-something draft pick, because when he entered the NBA, he was a monster college rebounder and hustle player. Nothing else. They thought he might be good for a few hustle plays and rebounds a game. Kind of like undersized Kenneth Faried mould. Then he added some back to the basket moves/post ups. Then improved as cutter off PnRs. Then mid-range shots, then 18-20ft jump shots. Then iso moves, and started to handle the ball well. Also a very underrated passer for a PF these days. And this year, a bit of a 3-pt shot. 2 years ago, he gave up 40% on close-out 3pt defense, and a year later, it was down to 33%. Every year, he's added something new to his arsenal. And he's continued to improve, even though this year, it's hard to see because of the unique circumstances with Utah's frontline and youth movement. I think a poster mentioned his game being like a combination of Faried and Carl Landry. I quite agree. Some players stop improving, because they don't work hard at their games. That's not Millsap. Is he having a great season? Nope. Is there a reason for it? Yes, being asked to play the 3 for decent stints, losing minutes with the emergence of Favors, and also playing in a crowded front-court with limited spacing for the big man (Kanter, Jefferson, Favors and himself). In my earlier posts, I said I believe Millsap is the kind of guy Morey would love to get his hands on. Won't go through the list again. But what I differ from some posters is that I would really only try to get Millsap as a free agent, NOT in a trade. Because I don't think it's worth giving up a ton for him, especially with how thin we are for depth, and how we emptied our expendable asset chest (including draft picks) for Harden. I would doubt we have the assets to trade for the better PFs in Love/Aldridge, I don't want ageing Gasol, and out of Millsap, Josh Smith and Jefferson, I think Millsap is the best fit and could come the cheapest for the variety of reasons that he's being doubted here. Is it better to wait patiently for that all-star? Sure. But I don't know whether we have the assets to go after them now, given we can't trade a 1st round pick (owed to Atlanta), and I doubt any team's trading us a bonafide allstar for our crop of young PFs, or expirings in Cook, Douglas, Delfino (team option) and Aldrich. Those add up to a Kevin Martin expiring in terms of contract size, and it's better to have one Kevin Martin than these 4 combined. I'd rather us get closer with Millsap, develop 1 or 2 of our PFs (DMo and Morris or Patterson or T Jones), and trade the other ones away for depth at PG, SG or C.
Millsap has a more complete game than Patterson, with more rebounds, better defense and a clutch shot. That being said, he will never be a star, just a very good role player - and that's not what we should be spending our cap space for now.
Hold you judgement for now. Patterson is still developing and on rookie contract. If he keeps this up and improve on rebounding, he'll be an allstar pretty soon.
Are you under the impression that two players being "different" is more valuable than their actual production on the floor? So Millsap doesn't have the versatility to play the three? I didn't know that. Sounds like a strike against him. This is hardly probative of anything, since the Rockets play in the West. The Eastern Conference is filled with slow-paced, garbage basketball and marginal all-stars (Hi Joe Johnson!!). It's like telling somebody they stink, but not as badly as a tupperware container filled with hermetically sealed dog farts and then released in the bathroom of a paper mill. Wow, what a compliment! Oh I see, the actual stats show Millsap to be a sidegrade at best. So we're going to ignore those and try to look at +/-....on the Utah Jazz? And at win shares? A better understanding of those advanced stats would tell you that Millsap is valuable to a very poor Utah Jazz team. And if we're Hollinger advanced stat jockriding here, do you think PER is significant in a world where Eric Bledsoe (22.8 PER) has a higher PER than Russell Westbrook (22.2 PER) and Dwight Howard? (22.1 PER) This attempt to ignore stats and look at the stats "beyond" the stats is more than a little clumsy and disingenuous. "More than off the mark?" In other words, completely off the mark? Millsap hasn't peaked, according to you? Paul Millsap is going to explode into a significantly better player than he's been for the past 7 NBA seasons because he was a good rebounder in college? Am I even reading this correctly? lol wow ahahahaha I'm sorry I just don't have the energy to continue explaining how wrong you are on a paragraph by paragraph basis anymore. I'm still laughing at the "well, he was a good rebounder in college!" plucky assertions. loooool
Gonna just ignore this entire, 7-season body of work because remember when Paul Millsap was drafted low out of college? Remember that? Huh? What the....I don't even...
You need to re-look at my post. You've picked what you wanted to use (or misuse, would be a better word). I'll end here. Because it's pointless to argue with your argument.
- 2010-11 averaged, per 36mins, 18pts, 8rebs, 2.6 assists, 1blk, 1.5 steals and 2TOs, shooting 53% 2ptFG and 76% FTs on 4.6FTAs - 2011-12 averaged, per 36mins, 18pts, 9.7rebs, 2.5 assists, 0.9blks, 2 steals, and 2TOs, shooting 50% 2ptFG and 79% FTs on 4.4FTAs - 2012-13 so far (13 games) averaging, per 36mins, 17.5pts, 10.2rebs, 2.7 assists, 1.4blks, 1 steal, and 2.4TOs, shooting 47% overall FGs including 56% on 3s and 71% FTs on 4.7FTAs - His PERs were 19.8 in 2010-11, 21.8 in 2011-12 and 19.7 in 2012-13 (so far), and he’s never averaged below 16.1 PER in his six completed seasons so far. - His WS/48 were 0.143 in 2010-11, 0.179 in 2011-12 (just outside top 10 in NBA) and 0.158 in 2012-13 (so far), and has never dipped below 0.143 in his six completed seasons. - TS% has ranged between 54% to 58% in last 3 years, above league average. (http://www.basketball-reference.com/...millspa01.html) - This article from Basketball Prospectus (http://www.basketballprospectus.com/unfiltered/?p=834) has the Win Shares/48min, Adjusted plus/minus, statistical plus/minus, alternate win score, PER etc for the 2011/12 season up to the start of February. Millsap is pretty much ranked in the top 3 of western coference PFs of everything, and would be about top 5 PF overall.
Jazz fans can't wait to get rid of Millsap AND Jefferson. Just go to their forums, it's hard to find one of them that wants Millsap to stay around, they are just hoping to get anything for him
