I don't know how any true Christian could spend more than 20 minutes in Rev. Wright's church, much less 20 years.
I think from this thread it's clear that CaseyH doesn't believe Jesus Christ to be much of a Christian. GWB is obviously much more of a Christian than Jesus.
I don't see any incongruity with choosing Jeremiah Wright's church. It is a large prominent church in Chicago. Obama might not have agreed with everything Jeremiah Wright says but that doesn't seem a reason to not choose a church that is otherwise large, prominent and convenient for him to attend. Further if he chose it because of its community outreach I don't see any incongruity or controversy with that and Obama being a Christian. As for Liberals attacking Bush for talking to God as have been explained before that was criticized because Bush seemed to put as much weight in what he heard from God for reasons to do things as other reasons. Obama has said he has prayed over things but I have yet to hear him say that he acted because God told him to. He generally puts other reasons forward for his actions before he puts God.
How is that an incongruity? He explained why he picked that church: http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politic...n-by-choicethe-precepts-of-jesus-spoke-to-me/ In his second book, “The Audacity of Hope,” from 2006, then-Sen. Obama wrote that “the particular attributes of the historically black church” – Trinity United Church of Christ, the congregation he has since left after the controversy involving Rev. Jeremiah Wright – “helped me shed some of my skepticism and embrace the Christian faith.” The president wrote that he was “drawn to the power of the African American religious tradition to spur social change…I was able to see faith as more than just a comfort to the weary or a hedge against death; rather, it was an active, palpable agent in the world.” In the African American church, he wrote, “the lines between sinner and saved were more fluid; the sins of those who came to church were not so different from the sins of those who didn’t, and so were as likely to be talked about with humor as with condemnation. You needed to come to church precisely because you were of this world, not apart from it; rich, poor, sinner, saved, you needed to embrace Christ precisely because you had sins to wash away – because you were human and needed an ally in your difficult journey, to make the peaks and valleys smooth and render all those crooked paths straight.” The president wrote these “newfound understandings” led to him “finally able to walk down the aisle of Trinity United Church of Christ one day and be baptized. It came about as a choice and not an epiphany; the questions I had did not magically disappear. But kneeling beneath that cross on the South Side of Chicago, I felt God’s spirit beckoning me. I submitted myself to His will, and dedicated myself to discovering His truth.” Obviously, when he first went to the Church, he was probably not all that much of a Christian. And then as his Christianity developed, that was his Church. Lots of people go to Churches without espousing all of their values or agreeing 100% with the Pastor. Besides which, you're assuming the little you've heard of Jeremiah Wright is all that he has to offer - he may offer a lot of other things that would appeal to people. What does that have to do with Obama's faith? Every Democratic nominee of all time has been Christian, and Democrats have never had a problem with that. And, of course, most Democrats are Christian. And has already been explained, the problem with "Bush talking to God" is that he used those "talks" to justify all sorts of policies that Democrats oppose. It has nothing to do with his religion.
Interesting that you've judged 8000+ people to be not true Christians, despite having no clue of anything about their Church or life experience or what's in their heart. You seem to have a terribly uninformed understanding of Christianity.
The passage you quoted seriously backs up my idea. "African American religious tradition to spur social change", " the sins of those who came to church were not so different from the sins of those who didn’t" that's community outreach. We won't agree on this so I will just make a few points: Bush didn't just walk out of the press conference and say the "reason I am doing x is because god said I should" He didn't rely on them to make his case for policies. "most Democrats are Christian" is just totally irrelevant and probably misleading. I doubt we have any kind of numbers but it kinda leaves out that Democrats have the majority of Atheists and Jews. It also leaves out the numerous political disagreements between liberals and religious organizations.
No it doesn't - it explains why he was attracted to the Church in the first place. It doesn't explained what happened after or what led to his ultimate conversion to Baptism. Besudes, your idea is that he secretly is faking his Christianity, but the passage above is completely open about how he came to the faith. If he's trying to hide who he is, why admit that he was interested in social change at the start? Really? http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa "President Bush said to all of us: 'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did." Mr Bush went on: "And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East'. And, by God, I'm gonna do it." http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2003/nov/02/usa.religion 'I feel like God wants me to run for President. I can't explain it, but I sense my country is going to need me. Something is going to happen... I know it won't be easy on me or my family, but God wants me to do it.' I don't see how your point is relevant. You didn't say liberal atheists don't have a problem with Obama's faith. You said liberals don't. Of course liberals don't, because most liberals are Christian. Whether most Atheists or Jews are also liberals isn't really relevant. Yes - the key is *political disagreements*. They don't have those political disagreements with Obama, so why would it be a concern? Liberals' problem with faith is in the political realm, not the faith realm.
United Church of Chris has 87 members when Wright took over in 1972, when he retired in 2008 it has over 8000 members. What did the preachers before Wright preach: LOVE???
WTF do you think this entire thread has been about Major? page 2 page 3 (in reply to YOU) It got thrown off by the "I don't care", "doesn't make him a bad guy", and "what is a christian" replies. I expected that, but did not expect the outrage I got by saying Christians and liberals are not politically friendly. The crazy part is you, one of the most politically blind posters, read the OP said "No I think you are wrong" which was totally an appropriate response.
Their pastor is a whack job. He's a poor excuse for a Christian. You seem to be a terribly uniformed person about everything.
Yeah I don't really get what this thread is about. Casey are you saying that you believe 1. Obama isn't really a Christian and that it doesn't matter in general? 2. Obama isn't really a Christian and it's a bad thing? 3. Most Democrats aren't Christian so Obama not being a Christian doesn't matter?
I think if you read the thread I made myself pretty clear when not being pulled into tangents. If not, I doubt I can do a better job today. But of your options, #1 is the closest.
I haven't read much of this thread yet -but IMHO I think it's pretty clear Obama isn't a religious person -- and that's a good thing.
To be honest, I have no idea. You say liberals being OK with Obama's faith but not Bush's is an "incongruity" in Obama's faith. I have absolutely no idea what you're trying to suggest, or what liberal's view of Obama would have to do with whether he's a genuine Christian or not. You seem to be all over the map in this thread.
