Is Kobe better than MJ?

Pippen's fall from grace in Houston has all but destroyed his reputation. Say what you will about him, but there is no way Jordan has the energy to be such a prolific scorer or look as good on defense without Pippen covering opposition's number one option.

This argument is moot, anyway. If Lebron ever realizes how much talent and potential he has, the league is in trouble.

 

True, but nobody ever wins it all by themselves. He was Robin and MJ was Batman. Pippen made it easier for Jordan and vice versa. But its not like MJ was a slouch on defense. He made the all-defensive fist team 9 times, which is a record. Also, what happened after MJ left? Pippen got exposed in Houston.

 

Lebron is already the best. He just needs some help.

 

Kobe plays in a offensive oriented league while Jordan played against the Pistons.

On your second point, I think Jordan would've done just fine with Shaq. Of course both are our opinions, but Jordan knows how to win.

 

Post by Jordansbulls on realgm

Highest PPG Average: 30.12
Most seasons leading league in Points: 11
Most scoring titles: 10
Highest PER Efficiency: 27.91

Also, MJ is no doubt the greatest playoff performer and IMO he was the greatest Road Player Ever. Most of his greatest feats happened on the road.

The Playoffs is where you make your name and where greatness is defined.

Playoffs

Most Points Per Game (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most Points in a Game
63 by Michael Jordan

Most 50 Point Games
8 by Michael Jordan

Most 40 Point Games
38 by Michael Jordan

Most 30 Point Games
109 by Michael Jordan

Most 20 Point Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)


MJ:
NBA Regular-season records Michael Jordan holds:
-Most seasons leading league in scoring: 10
-Highest scoring average, career: 30.12ppg
-Most consecutive points, one game: 23
-Most seasons leading league in field goals made: 10
-Most consecutive gms in double figures in scoring:
866
-Most consecutive seasons leading PER: 7
-Highest career PER: 27.91
-Oldest player to score 40+ points: age 40 (43 pts)
-Oldest player to score 50+ points: age 38 (51 pts)

NBA Regular-season records Michael Jordan shares:
-Most consecutive seasons leading league in scoring:
7 (tied with Wilt Chamberlain)
-Most consecutive seasons, 2,000 plus points: 11 (Tied
with Malone)


NBA Playoff records Michael Jordan holds:
-Highest scoring average, career: 33.4ppg
-Record Total points: 5987
-Record Most FTS made: 1463
-Most points playoffs, one-game: 63
-Most points playoffs, three-game series: 135 (vs.
Miami, 1992)
-Most Points playoffs, five-game series: 226 (vs.
Cleveland, 1988)
-Most field goals made playoffs, three-game series:
53 (vs. Miami, 1992)
-Most field goals made playoffs, five-game series: 86
(vs. Philadelphia, 1990)
-Most field goals made playoffs, six-game series: 101
(vs. Phoenix, 1993)
-Most consecutive 50pt games: 2
-Most consecutive 45pt games: 3
-Most consecutive games, 20 plus points: 60
-Most free throws made, one quarter: 13
-Most free throws attempted, one quarter: 14
-Most 50 point games: 8
-Most 40 point games: 39
-Most consecutive points: 23

NBA Playoff records Michael Jordan shares:
-Most field goals, in a game: 24 (vs. Cleveland, May
1, 1988; tied with two others)
-Most three-point field goals made, one half: 6
(first half vs. Portland, June 3, 1992; tied with four
others)

NBA Finals records Michael Jordan holds:
- Highest Scoring average: 33.6
-Most points, six-game series: 246 (vs. Phoenix,
1993)
-Most field goals made, five-game series: 63 (vs.
L.A. Lakers, 1991)
-Most field goals made, six-game series: 101 (vs.
Phoenix, 1993)
-Most steals, five-game series: 14 (vs. L.A. Lakers,
1991)
-Highest scoring average, one series: 41.0 (vs.
Phoenix, 1993)
-Most consecutive games, 40-plus points: 4 (June 11,
1993 to June 18, 1993)
-Most consecutive 30 point games: 9
-Most consecutive games, 20-plus points: 29 (June 22,

1991 to June 1997)
-Most points, one-half: 35 (vs. Portland, June 3,
1992)
-Most consecutive field goals: 13 (Vs. LA)
-Most consecutive points: 23 (Vs. Seattle)
-Most Finals MVPs: 6



Here is Kobe's

KOBE:
NBA Regular-season records Kobe holds:
-All-rookie game (now defunct): 31 points

NBA Regular-season records Kobe Shares:
-Most 3 pointers in one game: 12 (shared with 1
player)
-Most 3 pointers in one half: 8 (5 players)
-Most consecutive 3 pointers: 9 (2 players)
-Most free throws made in one quarter: 14 (5 players)
-Most free throws attempted one quarter: 16 (6
players)

NBA Playoff Records Kobe holds:
-NONE

NBA Playoff Records Kobe Shares:
-NONE

NBA Finals records Kobe holds:
-NONE

NBA Finals records Kobe Shares:
-NONE


Conclusion: MJ still owns the most
scoring records as well as ALMOST ALL THE PLAYOFF
Records. Take a look at the all time scoring feats at
the bottom. MJ has 21 of them and the most important
ones, Wilt has 16, Kobe has 1. Take away Wilt and MJ
climbs to 26 and Kobe has 8. Below that are MJ's
records and KB's records. Not even close.

Here's a list of ALL-TIME SCORING RECORDS.

- Highest career scoring average: MJ 30.12
- Highest career playoff scoring average: MJ 33.4
- Highest career Finals scoring average: MJ 33.6
- Highest single season scoring average: Wilt 50.4
- Highest single series playoff average: West 46.3
- Highest single Finals series average: MJ 41.0
- Most seasons leading league in scoring: MJ 10
- Most consecutive seasons leading in scoring: MJ,
Wilt tied at 7
- Most 50 point games: Wilt 118
- Most 50 point games playoffs: MJ 8
- Most 40 point games: Wilt 271
- Most 40 point games playoffs: MJ 42
- Most consecutive 60 point games: Wilt 4
- Most consecutive 50 point games: Wilt 7
- Most consecutive 50 point games in playoffs: MJ 2
- Most consecutive 45 point games: Wilt 7
- Most consecutive 45 point games playoffs: MJ 3
- Most consecutive 40 point games: Wilt 14
- Most consecutive 40 point games rookie: AI 5
- Most consecutive 40 point games playoffs: West 6
- Most consecutive 40 point games finals: MJ 4
- Most consecutive 35 point games: Wilt 33
- Most consecutive 30 point games: Wilt 65
- Most consecutive 30 point games playoffs: Elgin 11
- Most consecutive 30 point games finals: MJ 9
- Most consecutive 20 point games: Wilt 126
- Most consecutive 20 point games playoffs: MJ 60
- Most consecutive 20 point games finals: MJ 35
- Most consecutive double figures scoring: MJ 866
- Most consecutive points in one game: MJ 23
- Most consecutive points in one game playoffs: MJ 23
- Highest scoring game: Wilt 100
- Highest scoring game playoffs: MJ 63
- Highest scoring game finals: Elgin 61
- Highest scoring game rookie: Wilt 58
- Highest scoring all-star game: Wilt 42
- Highest scoring all-rookie game: Kobe 31
- Most points in 3 quarters: Wilt 69
- Most points in one half: Wilt 59
- Most points one half playoffs: Sleepy Floyd 39
- Most points in one half finals: MJ 35
- Most points one half all-star game: Rice 24
- Most points in one quarter: Gervin 33
- Most points in one quarter playoffs: Sleepy Floyd 29
- Most points in one quarter finals: Isiah 25
- Most points in one quarter all-star game: Rice 20
- Most points in OT: Arenas 16
- Most points in OT playoffs: Drexler 13
- Most points in OT in finals: Havlicek, Laimbeer,
Ainge tied at 9
- Oldest to score 50: MJ 51 at age 38
- Oldest to score 40: MJ 43 at age 40



http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2002/playoffs/top_individual_points/

Top Playoff Single-Game Scoring Performances
Player Team Opponent Total Date
Michael Jordan Chicago at Boston 63 April 20, 1986
Elgin Baylor L.A. Lakers at Boston 61 April 14, 1962
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 56 March 22, 1962
Michael Jordan Chicago at Miami 56 April 29, 1992
Charles Barkley Phoenix at Golden State 56 May 4, 1994
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 55 May 1, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Phoenix 55 June 16, 1993
Michael Jordan Chicago Washington 55 April 27, 1997
John Havlicek Boston Atlanta 54 April 1, 1973
Michael Jordan Chicago New York 54 May 31, 1993
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 54 May 9, 2001
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 53 March 14, 1960
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Boston 53 April 23, 1969
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Baltimore 52 April 5, 1965
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 52 May 16, 2001
Sam Jones Boston at New York 51 March 28, 1967
Eric Floyd Golden State L.A. Lakers 51 May 10, 1987
Bob Cousy Boston Syracuse 50* March 21, 1953
Bob Petit St. Louis Boston 50 April 12, 1958
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia at Boston 50 March 22, 1950
Wilt Chamberlain San Francisco St. Louis 50 April 10, 1964
Billy Cunningham Philadelphia Milwaukee 50 April 1, 1970
Bob McAdoo Buffalo Washington 50 April 18, 1975
Dominique Wilkins Atlanta Detroit 50 April 19, 1986
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50 April 28, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50^ May 5, 1989
Karl Malone Utah Seattle 50 April 22, 2000
Vince Carter Toronto Philadelphia 50 May 11, 2001
*4 overtimes
^overtime



NBA PLAYOFFS HIGH SCORING GAME BY YEAR
1946-47 - 37 Joe Fulks, PHW vs CHI at PHW 16Apr47
1947-48 - 34 Connie Simmons, BLT vs NYK at BLT 27Mar48
1948-49 - 42 George Mikan, MPL vs WSC 4Apr49 @ MPL
1949-50 - 40 George Mikan, MPL vs SYR at MPL 23Apr50
1950-51 - 41 George Mikan, MPL vs IDS at MPL 21Mar51
1951-52 - 47 George Mikan, MPL at ROC 29Mar52
1952-53 - 50 Bob Cousy, BOS vs SYR at BOS 21Mar53
1953-54 - 36 Dolph Schayes, SYR at NYK 21Mar54
1954-55 - 32 Bill Sharman, BOS at SYR 24Mar55
1955-56 - 43 Neil Johnson, PHW at SYR 25Mar56
1956-57 - 42 Bob Leonard, MPL vs STL at MPL 25Mar57
1957-58 - 50 Bob Pettit, STL vs BOS at STL 12Apr58
1958-59 - 40 Cliff Hagan, STL vs MPL at STL 21Mar59
1959-60 - 53 Wilt Chamberlain, PHW vs SYR at PHW 14Mar60
1960-61 - 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at DET 18Mar61
............... 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at STL 27Mar61
1961-62 - 61 Elgin Baylor, LAL at BOS 14Apr62
1962-63 - 47 Sam Jones, BOS vs CIN at BOS 10Apr63
1963-64 - 50 Wilt Chamberlain, SFW vs STL at SFW 10Apr64
1964-65 - 52 Jerry West, LAL vs BAL at LAL 3Apr65
1965-66 - 46 Wilt Chamberlain, PHI vs BOS at PHI 12Apr66
1966-67 - 55 Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI at SFW 18Apr67
1967-68 - 46 Zelmo Beaty, STL vs SFW 23Mar68 @ STL
1968-69 - 53 Jerry West, LAL vs BOS at LAL 23Apr69
1969-70 - 50 Billy Cunningham, PHI vs MIL at PHI 1Apr70
1970-71 - 39 Gail Goodrich, LAL at CHI 28Mar71
1971-72 - 43 John Havlicek BOS at ATL 31Mar72
1972-73 - 54 John Havlicek, BOS vs ATL at BOS 1Apr73
1973-74 - 44 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs BOS 6Apr74 at BUF
............... 44 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, MIL at CHI 18Apr74
1974-75 - 50 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs WAS at BUF 18Apr75
1975-76 - 45 Fred Brown, SEA vs PHO at SEA 15Apr76
1976-77 - 45 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, LAL vs GSW at LAL 29Apr77
1977-78 - 46 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 18Apr78
1978-79 - 42 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 11May79
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at WAS 18May79
1979-80 - 44 George Gervin, SAN vs HOU at SAN 4Apr80
1980-81 - 42 Calvin Murphy, HOU at SAN 17Apr81
............... 42 Moses Malone, HOU vs KCK at HOU 26Apr81
1981-82 - 39 George Gervin, SAN vs LAL at SAN 14May82
............... 39 Andrew Toney, PHI vs BOS at PHI 16May82
1982-83 - 42 Alex English, DEN vs PHO at PHO 24Apr83
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at DEN 26Apr83
1983-84 - 46 Bernard King, NYK at DET 19Apr84
............... 46 Bernard King, NYK vs DET at NYK 22Apr84
1984-85 - 43 Rolando Blackman, DAL vs POR at DAL 18Apr85
............... 43 Larry Bird, BOS vs DET at BOS 8May85
1985-86 - 63 Michael Jordan, CHI at BOS 20Apr86
1986-87 - 51 Sleepy Floyd, GSW vs LAL at GSW 10May87
1987-88 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 1May88
1988-89 - 50 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 5May89
1989-90 - 49 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 11May90
1990-91 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 10May91
1991-92 - 56 Michael Jordan, CHI at MIA 29Apr92
1992-93 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO at CHI 16Jun93
1993-94 - 56 Charles Barkley, PHO at GSW 4May94
1994-95 - 48 Michael Jordan, CHI at CHA 28Apr95
1995-96 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at NYK 11May96
1996-97 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs WAS at CHI 27Apr97
1997-98 - 45 Michael Jordan, CHI at UTA 14Jun98
1998-99 - 37 Tim Duncan, SAN at LAL 22May99
............... 37 Scottie Pippen, HOU vs LAL at HOU 13May99
............... 37 Shaquille O'Neal, LAL vs HOU at HOU 15May99
............... 37 Allen Iverson, PHI vs ORL at PHI 15May99
1999-00 - 50 Karl Malone, UTA vs SEA at UTA 22Apr00
-----
ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA PLAYOFFS
Jerry West, LAL vs BAL, 1965..... 46.3
Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE, 1988..... 45.2
Michael Jordan, CHI vs MIA, 1992..... 45.0

ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES/NBA FINALS
Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO, 1993..... 41.0
Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI, 1965..... 40.8
Elgin Baylor, LAL vs BOS, 1962..... 40.6

Also MJ has 6 series in the playoffs over 40+ ppg.

And for people using the era difference, if that is the case why is Iverson 2nd all time in PPG in the PLAYOFFS and 3rd all time in PPG in the season?


http://www.nba.com/statistics/encyc/Player.jsp

PPG All Time


With respect to Kobe, he is my boy and all, but seriously he never has been as good as MJ was.

First off Kobe's best PER is as good as MJ's career average PER.

Next off is the following:

Also, Kobe in the finals. This is how they performed in the finals.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/zillgitt/2004-06-15-zillgitt_x.htm

In 35 Finals games, Jordan averaged 33.6 points, 6.0 rebounds and 6.0 assists a game.

In 19 Finals games, Bryant has averaged 22.2 points, 5.2 rebounds and 4.9 assists a game.


MVP's - Jordan = 5; Kobe = 1 (right now)

Titles - Jordan = 6 (as the #1 Option); Kobe = 3 (as the #2 Option)

Finals MVP's - Jordan = 6; Kobe = 0 (right now)

DPOY - Jordan = 1; Kobe = 0

Scoring Titles - Jordan = 10; Kobe = 2

Career PPG - Jordan = 30.1 (Highest Ever); Kobe = 25.0

Playoffs PPG - Jordan = 33.4 (Highest Ever); Kobe = 24.0

Playoff Points - Jordan = 5987 - Most Ever Points (179 games); Kobe = 3386 (140 games)

FG% - Jordan - 50% Career; Kobe = 45% Career Thus Far

Playoff FG% - Jordan = 49% Career; Kobe = 44% Career Thus Far

PER (Offensive and Defensive Rating) - Jordan Career = 27.91 (highest ever); Kobe = 23.57

Steals - Jordan = 2.4 SPG Career (with 3 Steals Titles); Kobe = 1.5 SPG

Blocks - Jordan = 0.8 BPG Career (most blocks ever for a guard); Kobe = 0.6


http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm

Here were the requirements

NBA ALL-TIME LEADERS:
(All statistical records + playoff records + career averages + playoff averages + MVPs + Finals MVPs + Rings + All-1st teams + All-1st Defensive Teams + All-star games + All-star MVPS)

This is how it broke down each category:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm


This is how it broke down each category:
NBA MVP awards won (five points each)
NBA championships won (five points each)
All-Star Games selected to play in (one point each)
All-NBA first-team selections (two points each)
All-defensive first team (one point each)
NBA Finals MVP awards (two points each)
All-Star MVP awards (one point each)
Individual statistical titles (two points each) — restricted to points, rebounds, assists, field goal percentage and free throw percentage, the stats the league has used the longest
Career averages (six points each) — if a player is the NBA career leader in scoring average, rebounds, assists, field goal percentage or free throw percentage
Career playoff averages (five points each) — for each category the player leads


That was the criteria used

1st Place: MJ, 149 total points
2nd Place: Wilt, 124 total points
3rd Place: Bill, 118 total points
4th Place: Jabbar, 114 total points
5th Place: Magic, 102 total points

Now adding up the current players you get (Active Players):
1st Place: Shaq, 85 total points
2nd Place: Tim, 71 total points
3rd Place: KB, 45 total points

Kobe has like a 1/3 of the points that MJ has, he isn't even close. Now he won MVP this year and will get All NBA 1st team and Defense which means his total will be 54 points which isn't even the best in this era.



These players all lost these series with Homecourt advantage which means they were the favorite. If someone was injured like a main star then that factors in, but if not that doesn't factor in the discussion.

MJ never lost a series with homecourt advantage/better seed/better record.

Also consider the following:

Is 18% a good percentage?

In what you might ask... 18% winning percentage...

Pretty awful right?

Well in 60 years of NBA Basketball only 11 league leading scorers have won a championship... That's 18.333333%...

Their names are: Shaquille O'Neal, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, George Mikan and some guy named Joe Fulks...

Most of these players were dominant Centers, who did more than just score.

That means that non center players who led the league in scoring have won in an amazing 10% of the time.. and only one player did it... Michael Jordan. In one era. That phenomenon of nature who won six...

10% winning historically!!! 10 PERCENT!!!

I will argue that the odds are against a high scoring guard from winning it all.

Would you?

I will argue that who ever is the only one to do that should be considered a truly great.. would you?

I will say that the way to go is to build a team in which you get many other good options to score, a balanced attack?


http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html

MJ has led in Offensive Win Shares 8x, and was 2nd 1x.

1.) Offensive Win Shares
1984-85 NBA 28.7 (3)
1986-87 NBA 29.0 (4)
1987-88 NBA 39.6 (1)
1988-89 NBA 42.7 (1)
1989-90 NBA 44.3 (1)
1990-91 NBA 40.6 (1)
1991-92 NBA 34.2 (1)
1992-93 NBA 34.1 (1)
1995-96 NBA 38.5 (1)
1996-97 NBA 37.3 (1)
1997-98 NBA 28.6 (2)
NBA 413.5 (1)
Career 413.5 (1)


2.) MJ has led in Win Shares 8x, and was 2nd 1x

Win Shares
1984-85 NBA 40 (3)
1986-87 NBA 43 (4)
1987-88 NBA 58 (1)
1988-89 NBA 59 (1)
1989-90 NBA 59 (1)
1990-91 NBA 56 (1)
1991-92 NBA 51 (1)
1992-93 NBA 50 (1)
1995-96 NBA 57 (1)
1996-97 NBA 52 (1)
1997-98 NBA 45 (2)


3.)

MJ has led in Win Shares Above Average 8x, no one else has led by even half that.

Win Shares Above Average
1987-88 NBA 28.0 (1)
1988-89 NBA 27.5 (1)
1989-90 NBA 26.5 (1)
1990-91 NBA 26.5 (1)
1991-92 NBA 24.5 (1)
1992-93 NBA 23.5 (1)
1995-96 NBA 28.0 (1)
1996-97 NBA 24.0 (1)


In my mind MJ is the GOAT, and I provided ample evidence of why I feel that way, but it is really close as guys like Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Magic and Bird on right their in the discussion, but when you consider how good MJ was on both ends of the court and how efficient he was as a player and the fact that he was a guard that in itself helps his case much more.

Also let's not forget MJ is currently the only player to average 30+ ppg for a career in the playoffs and he is the only one to do so in the season, playoffs and finals and he has the highest average in each of them and his has the most playoff points ever.

Here was a clip in 1993 where even Jerry West mentioned MJ was the best
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1mFE_ekV7E&mode=related&search=


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZquLVr3MeGk&feature=related
@ the 1:30 mark, Dick Stockton refers to Jerry West mentioning that MJ was the greatest ever period.


Pat Riley mentions that Jordan will always be considered the best
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0565oawy9Ak


7:55 mark Isiah Thomas debates on why MJ was the best over Wilt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nP-Rm2atzU0


http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm

Oh and you can see some of the numbers above.

 

Pippen was just as good as jordan held him to be, noticed how he sucked when he left chicago?

 

Kobe made smush parker look like smush parker,

Look at what Jordan made his teammates look like

 

I am a fan of both MJ and JellyBean Bryant's son. in my books, MJ is the greatest NBAer ever ; kobe is not even 2 nor 3.

facts do not support your claim. MJ has never on a ring by himself; he could never reach the Finals until both

• the maturation of Pippen and the arrival of Phillip.
  • both of whom, without which, MJ would be ringless

that may be, but Kobe is the closest thing to MJ

your biase is such that u ommitted to mention Smush was a undrafted player. He was a FA pickup; look what has happened to him after he left the Lakers where there is no Kobe to bail him out ????

look what Kobe made Shaq look like! and Pau Gasol / Vuaacci / Luke Walton !and so on

notice how MJ could never reached the Finals until the maturation of Pippen coupled with the Zen teaching of Phillip​

 

I share your opinion about Pippen. IMO, he wouldn't have been the player he was without the "peer pressure" and leadership of MJ pushing him to the limit of his ability. You can't really prove it but that's just the way I feel.

 

MJ was 1-9 in playoff without Pippen, Kobe's way better than that.

Kobe made Smush/Kwame looked like Smush, Kwame. They become NBDL players elsewhere immediately.

MJ had Oakley, the leading rebounder at the time. I'd say that's better support than Odom was.

 

likewise, Shaq wouldn't have been the player he was without the "peer pressure" and leadership of Kobe, without which Shaq would be a 450+ lb immovable mass.

 

Kobe has lost in the first round twice with Phil Jackson and blew a 3-1 series lead as well against a team whose tallest player was 6'8".

Also Kobe shot 38% and 37% in two finals series and lost with HC Advantage.

At least Jordan was able to get to the conference finals w/o Phil Jackson and not much help.

Kobe couldn't even make the playoffs with superstar Caron Butler and Odom and Rudy T as coach.

 

It's not close by any means at all, you say the zone has changed how individuals score, well then tell me why Iverson who came into the league the same year as Kobe is 2nd all time in Playoffs PPG and 3rd all time in Season PPG and this from a 6'0" guard. Goes to show it is actually easier to score nowadays.


Wrote this in another post.

Post by Jordansbulls on realgm

Highest PPG Average: 30.12
Most seasons leading league in Points: 11
Most scoring titles: 10
Highest PER Efficiency: 27.91

Also, MJ is no doubt the greatest playoff performer and IMO he was the greatest Road Player Ever. Most of his greatest feats happened on the road.

The Playoffs is where you make your name and where greatness is defined.

Playoffs

Most Points Per Game (min. 25 games)
33.4 by Michael Jordan (179 games)

Most Points in a Game
63 by Michael Jordan

Most 50 Point Games
8 by Michael Jordan

Most 40 Point Games
38 by Michael Jordan

Most 30 Point Games
109 by Michael Jordan

Most 20 Point Games
174 by Michael Jordan (he played 179 playoff games and scored under 20 only 5 times)


MJ:
NBA Regular-season records Michael Jordan holds:
-Most seasons leading league in scoring: 10
-Highest scoring average, career: 30.12ppg
-Most consecutive points, one game: 23
-Most seasons leading league in field goals made: 10
-Most consecutive gms in double figures in scoring:
866
-Most consecutive seasons leading PER: 7
-Highest career PER: 27.91
-Oldest player to score 40+ points: age 40 (43 pts)
-Oldest player to score 50+ points: age 38 (51 pts)

NBA Regular-season records Michael Jordan shares:
-Most consecutive seasons leading league in scoring:
7 (tied with Wilt Chamberlain)
-Most consecutive seasons, 2,000 plus points: 11 (Tied
with Malone)


NBA Playoff records Michael Jordan holds:
-Highest scoring average, career: 33.4ppg
-Record Total points: 5987
-Record Most FTS made: 1463
-Most points playoffs, one-game: 63
-Most points playoffs, three-game series: 135 (vs.
Miami, 1992)
-Most Points playoffs, five-game series: 226 (vs.
Cleveland, 1988)
-Most field goals made playoffs, three-game series:
53 (vs. Miami, 1992)
-Most field goals made playoffs, five-game series: 86
(vs. Philadelphia, 1990)
-Most field goals made playoffs, six-game series: 101
(vs. Phoenix, 1993)
-Most consecutive 50pt games: 2
-Most consecutive 45pt games: 3
-Most consecutive games, 20 plus points: 60
-Most free throws made, one quarter: 13
-Most free throws attempted, one quarter: 14
-Most 50 point games: 8
-Most 40 point games: 39
-Most consecutive points: 23

NBA Playoff records Michael Jordan shares:
-Most field goals, in a game: 24 (vs. Cleveland, May
1, 1988; tied with two others)
-Most three-point field goals made, one half: 6
(first half vs. Portland, June 3, 1992; tied with four
others)

NBA Finals records Michael Jordan holds:
- Highest Scoring average: 33.6
-Most points, six-game series: 246 (vs. Phoenix,
1993)
-Most field goals made, five-game series: 63 (vs.
L.A. Lakers, 1991)
-Most field goals made, six-game series: 101 (vs.
Phoenix, 1993)
-Most steals, five-game series: 14 (vs. L.A. Lakers,
1991)
-Highest scoring average, one series: 41.0 (vs.
Phoenix, 1993)
-Most consecutive games, 40-plus points: 4 (June 11,
1993 to June 18, 1993)
-Most consecutive 30 point games: 9
-Most consecutive games, 20-plus points: 29 (June 22,

1991 to June 1997)
-Most points, one-half: 35 (vs. Portland, June 3,
1992)
-Most consecutive field goals: 13 (Vs. LA)
-Most consecutive points: 23 (Vs. Seattle)
-Most Finals MVPs: 6



Here is Kobe's

KOBE:
NBA Regular-season records Kobe holds:
-All-rookie game (now defunct): 31 points

NBA Regular-season records Kobe Shares:
-Most 3 pointers in one game: 12 (shared with 1
player)
-Most 3 pointers in one half: 8 (5 players)
-Most consecutive 3 pointers: 9 (2 players)
-Most free throws made in one quarter: 14 (5 players)
-Most free throws attempted one quarter: 16 (6
players)

NBA Playoff Records Kobe holds:
-NONE

NBA Playoff Records Kobe Shares:
-NONE

NBA Finals records Kobe holds:
-NONE

NBA Finals records Kobe Shares:
-NONE


Conclusion: MJ still owns the most
scoring records as well as ALMOST ALL THE PLAYOFF
Records. Take a look at the all time scoring feats at
the bottom. MJ has 21 of them and the most important
ones, Wilt has 16, Kobe has 1. Take away Wilt and MJ
climbs to 26 and Kobe has 8. Below that are MJ's
records and KB's records. Not even close.

Here's a list of ALL-TIME SCORING RECORDS.

- Highest career scoring average: MJ 30.12
- Highest career playoff scoring average: MJ 33.4
- Highest career Finals scoring average: MJ 33.6
- Highest single season scoring average: Wilt 50.4
- Highest single series playoff average: West 46.3
- Highest single Finals series average: MJ 41.0
- Most seasons leading league in scoring: MJ 10
- Most consecutive seasons leading in scoring: MJ,
Wilt tied at 7
- Most 50 point games: Wilt 118
- Most 50 point games playoffs: MJ 8
- Most 40 point games: Wilt 271
- Most 40 point games playoffs: MJ 42
- Most consecutive 60 point games: Wilt 4
- Most consecutive 50 point games: Wilt 7
- Most consecutive 50 point games in playoffs: MJ 2
- Most consecutive 45 point games: Wilt 7
- Most consecutive 45 point games playoffs: MJ 3
- Most consecutive 40 point games: Wilt 14
- Most consecutive 40 point games rookie: AI 5
- Most consecutive 40 point games playoffs: West 6
- Most consecutive 40 point games finals: MJ 4
- Most consecutive 35 point games: Wilt 33
- Most consecutive 30 point games: Wilt 65
- Most consecutive 30 point games playoffs: Elgin 11
- Most consecutive 30 point games finals: MJ 9
- Most consecutive 20 point games: Wilt 126
- Most consecutive 20 point games playoffs: MJ 60
- Most consecutive 20 point games finals: MJ 35
- Most consecutive double figures scoring: MJ 866
- Most consecutive points in one game: MJ 23
- Most consecutive points in one game playoffs: MJ 23
- Highest scoring game: Wilt 100
- Highest scoring game playoffs: MJ 63
- Highest scoring game finals: Elgin 61
- Highest scoring game rookie: Wilt 58
- Highest scoring all-star game: Wilt 42
- Highest scoring all-rookie game: Kobe 31
- Most points in 3 quarters: Wilt 69
- Most points in one half: Wilt 59
- Most points one half playoffs: Sleepy Floyd 39
- Most points in one half finals: MJ 35
- Most points one half all-star game: Rice 24
- Most points in one quarter: Gervin 33
- Most points in one quarter playoffs: Sleepy Floyd 29
- Most points in one quarter finals: Isiah 25
- Most points in one quarter all-star game: Rice 20
- Most points in OT: Arenas 16
- Most points in OT playoffs: Drexler 13
- Most points in OT in finals: Havlicek, Laimbeer,
Ainge tied at 9
- Oldest to score 50: MJ 51 at age 38
- Oldest to score 40: MJ 43 at age 40



http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/basketball/nba/2002/playoffs/top_individual_points/

Top Playoff Single-Game Scoring Performances
Player Team Opponent Total Date
Michael Jordan Chicago at Boston 63 April 20, 1986
Elgin Baylor L.A. Lakers at Boston 61 April 14, 1962
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 56 March 22, 1962
Michael Jordan Chicago at Miami 56 April 29, 1992
Charles Barkley Phoenix at Golden State 56 May 4, 1994
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 55 May 1, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Phoenix 55 June 16, 1993
Michael Jordan Chicago Washington 55 April 27, 1997
John Havlicek Boston Atlanta 54 April 1, 1973
Michael Jordan Chicago New York 54 May 31, 1993
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 54 May 9, 2001
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia Syracuse 53 March 14, 1960
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Boston 53 April 23, 1969
Jerry West L.A. Lakers Baltimore 52 April 5, 1965
Allen Iverson Philadelphia Toronto 52 May 16, 2001
Sam Jones Boston at New York 51 March 28, 1967
Eric Floyd Golden State L.A. Lakers 51 May 10, 1987
Bob Cousy Boston Syracuse 50* March 21, 1953
Bob Petit St. Louis Boston 50 April 12, 1958
Wilt Chamberlain Philadelphia at Boston 50 March 22, 1950
Wilt Chamberlain San Francisco St. Louis 50 April 10, 1964
Billy Cunningham Philadelphia Milwaukee 50 April 1, 1970
Bob McAdoo Buffalo Washington 50 April 18, 1975
Dominique Wilkins Atlanta Detroit 50 April 19, 1986
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50 April 28, 1988
Michael Jordan Chicago Cleveland 50^ May 5, 1989
Karl Malone Utah Seattle 50 April 22, 2000
Vince Carter Toronto Philadelphia 50 May 11, 2001
*4 overtimes
^overtime



NBA PLAYOFFS HIGH SCORING GAME BY YEAR
1946-47 - 37 Joe Fulks, PHW vs CHI at PHW 16Apr47
1947-48 - 34 Connie Simmons, BLT vs NYK at BLT 27Mar48
1948-49 - 42 George Mikan, MPL vs WSC 4Apr49 @ MPL
1949-50 - 40 George Mikan, MPL vs SYR at MPL 23Apr50
1950-51 - 41 George Mikan, MPL vs IDS at MPL 21Mar51
1951-52 - 47 George Mikan, MPL at ROC 29Mar52
1952-53 - 50 Bob Cousy, BOS vs SYR at BOS 21Mar53
1953-54 - 36 Dolph Schayes, SYR at NYK 21Mar54
1954-55 - 32 Bill Sharman, BOS at SYR 24Mar55
1955-56 - 43 Neil Johnson, PHW at SYR 25Mar56
1956-57 - 42 Bob Leonard, MPL vs STL at MPL 25Mar57
1957-58 - 50 Bob Pettit, STL vs BOS at STL 12Apr58
1958-59 - 40 Cliff Hagan, STL vs MPL at STL 21Mar59
1959-60 - 53 Wilt Chamberlain, PHW vs SYR at PHW 14Mar60
1960-61 - 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at DET 18Mar61
............... 47 Elgin Baylor, LAL at STL 27Mar61
1961-62 - 61 Elgin Baylor, LAL at BOS 14Apr62
1962-63 - 47 Sam Jones, BOS vs CIN at BOS 10Apr63
1963-64 - 50 Wilt Chamberlain, SFW vs STL at SFW 10Apr64
1964-65 - 52 Jerry West, LAL vs BAL at LAL 3Apr65
1965-66 - 46 Wilt Chamberlain, PHI vs BOS at PHI 12Apr66
1966-67 - 55 Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI at SFW 18Apr67
1967-68 - 46 Zelmo Beaty, STL vs SFW 23Mar68 @ STL
1968-69 - 53 Jerry West, LAL vs BOS at LAL 23Apr69
1969-70 - 50 Billy Cunningham, PHI vs MIL at PHI 1Apr70
1970-71 - 39 Gail Goodrich, LAL at CHI 28Mar71
1971-72 - 43 John Havlicek BOS at ATL 31Mar72
1972-73 - 54 John Havlicek, BOS vs ATL at BOS 1Apr73
1973-74 - 44 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs BOS 6Apr74 at BUF
............... 44 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, MIL at CHI 18Apr74
1974-75 - 50 Bob McAdoo, BUF vs WAS at BUF 18Apr75
1975-76 - 45 Fred Brown, SEA vs PHO at SEA 15Apr76
1976-77 - 45 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, LAL vs GSW at LAL 29Apr77
1977-78 - 46 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 18Apr78
1978-79 - 42 George Gervin, SAN vs WAS at SAN 11May79
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at WAS 18May79
1979-80 - 44 George Gervin, SAN vs HOU at SAN 4Apr80
1980-81 - 42 Calvin Murphy, HOU at SAN 17Apr81
............... 42 Moses Malone, HOU vs KCK at HOU 26Apr81
1981-82 - 39 George Gervin, SAN vs LAL at SAN 14May82
............... 39 Andrew Toney, PHI vs BOS at PHI 16May82
1982-83 - 42 Alex English, DEN vs PHO at PHO 24Apr83
............... 42 George Gervin, SAN at DEN 26Apr83
1983-84 - 46 Bernard King, NYK at DET 19Apr84
............... 46 Bernard King, NYK vs DET at NYK 22Apr84
1984-85 - 43 Rolando Blackman, DAL vs POR at DAL 18Apr85
............... 43 Larry Bird, BOS vs DET at BOS 8May85
1985-86 - 63 Michael Jordan, CHI at BOS 20Apr86
1986-87 - 51 Sleepy Floyd, GSW vs LAL at GSW 10May87
1987-88 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 1May88
1988-89 - 50 Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE at CHI 5May89
1989-90 - 49 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 11May90
1990-91 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at PHI 10May91
1991-92 - 56 Michael Jordan, CHI at MIA 29Apr92
1992-93 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO at CHI 16Jun93
1993-94 - 56 Charles Barkley, PHO at GSW 4May94
1994-95 - 48 Michael Jordan, CHI at CHA 28Apr95
1995-96 - 46 Michael Jordan, CHI at NYK 11May96
1996-97 - 55 Michael Jordan, CHI vs WAS at CHI 27Apr97
1997-98 - 45 Michael Jordan, CHI at UTA 14Jun98
1998-99 - 37 Tim Duncan, SAN at LAL 22May99
............... 37 Scottie Pippen, HOU vs LAL at HOU 13May99
............... 37 Shaquille O'Neal, LAL vs HOU at HOU 15May99
............... 37 Allen Iverson, PHI vs ORL at PHI 15May99
1999-00 - 50 Karl Malone, UTA vs SEA at UTA 22Apr00
-----
ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA PLAYOFFS
Jerry West, LAL vs BAL, 1965..... 46.3
Michael Jordan, CHI vs CLE, 1988..... 45.2
Michael Jordan, CHI vs MIA, 1992..... 45.0

ALL-TIME HIGHEST SCORING AVERAGES, NBA CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES/NBA FINALS
Michael Jordan, CHI vs PHO, 1993..... 41.0
Rick Barry, SFW vs PHI, 1965..... 40.8
Elgin Baylor, LAL vs BOS, 1962..... 40.6

Also MJ has 6 series in the playoffs over 40+ ppg.

And for people using the era difference, if that is the case why is Iverson 2nd all time in PPG in the PLAYOFFS and 3rd all time in PPG in the season?


http://www.nba.com/statistics/encyc/Player.jsp

PPG All Time


With respect to Kobe, he is my boy and all, but seriously he never has been as good as MJ was.

First off Kobe's best PER is as good as MJ's career average PER.

Next off is the following:

Also, Kobe in the finals. This is how they performed in the finals.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnist/zillgitt/2004-06-15-zillgitt_x.htm

In 35 Finals games, Jordan averaged 33.6 points, 6.0 rebounds and 6.0 assists a game.

In 19 Finals games, Bryant has averaged 22.2 points, 5.2 rebounds and 4.9 assists a game.


MVP's - Jordan = 5; Kobe = 1 (right now)

Titles - Jordan = 6 (as the #1 Option); Kobe = 3 (as the #2 Option)

Finals MVP's - Jordan = 6; Kobe = 0 (right now)

DPOY - Jordan = 1; Kobe = 0

Scoring Titles - Jordan = 10; Kobe = 2

Career PPG - Jordan = 30.1 (Highest Ever); Kobe = 25.0

Playoffs PPG - Jordan = 33.4 (Highest Ever); Kobe = 24.0

Playoff Points - Jordan = 5987 - Most Ever Points (179 games); Kobe = 3386 (140 games)

FG% - Jordan - 50% Career; Kobe = 45% Career Thus Far

Playoff FG% - Jordan = 49% Career; Kobe = 44% Career Thus Far

PER (Offensive and Defensive Rating) - Jordan Career = 27.91 (highest ever); Kobe = 23.57

Steals - Jordan = 2.4 SPG Career (with 3 Steals Titles); Kobe = 1.5 SPG

Blocks - Jordan = 0.8 BPG Career (most blocks ever for a guard); Kobe = 0.6


http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm

Here were the requirements

NBA ALL-TIME LEADERS:
(All statistical records + playoff records + career averages + playoff averages + MVPs + Finals MVPs + Rings + All-1st teams + All-1st Defensive Teams + All-star games + All-star MVPS)

This is how it broke down each category:
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm


This is how it broke down each category:
NBA MVP awards won (five points each)
NBA championships won (five points each)
All-Star Games selected to play in (one point each)
All-NBA first-team selections (two points each)
All-defensive first team (one point each)
NBA Finals MVP awards (two points each)
All-Star MVP awards (one point each)
Individual statistical titles (two points each) — restricted to points, rebounds, assists, field goal percentage and free throw percentage, the stats the league has used the longest
Career averages (six points each) — if a player is the NBA career leader in scoring average, rebounds, assists, field goal percentage or free throw percentage
Career playoff averages (five points each) — for each category the player leads


That was the criteria used

1st Place: MJ, 149 total points
2nd Place: Wilt, 124 total points
3rd Place: Bill, 118 total points
4th Place: Jabbar, 114 total points
5th Place: Magic, 102 total points

Now adding up the current players you get (Active Players):
1st Place: Shaq, 85 total points
2nd Place: Tim, 71 total points
3rd Place: KB, 45 total points

Kobe has like a 1/3 of the points that MJ has, he isn't even close. Now he won MVP this year and will get All NBA 1st team and Defense which means his total will be 54 points which isn't even the best in this era.



These players all lost these series with Homecourt advantage which means they were the favorite. If someone was injured like a main star then that factors in, but if not that doesn't factor in the discussion.



MJ never lost a series with homecourt advantage/better seed/better record.

Also consider the following:

Is 18% a good percentage?

In what you might ask... 18% winning percentage...

Pretty awful right?

Well in 60 years of NBA Basketball only 11 league leading scorers have won a championship... That's 18.333333%...

Their names are: Shaquille O'Neal, Michael Jordan, Kareem Abdul Jabbar, George Mikan and some guy named Joe Fulks...

Most of these players were dominant Centers, who did more than just score.

That means that non center players who led the league in scoring have won in an amazing 10% of the time.. and only one player did it... Michael Jordan. In one era. That phenomenon of nature who won six...

10% winning historically!!! 10 PERCENT!!!

I will argue that the odds are against a high scoring guard from winning it all.

Would you?

I will argue that who ever is the only one to do that should be considered a truly great.. would you?

I will say that the way to go is to build a team in which you get many other good options to score, a balanced attack?


http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html

MJ has led in Offensive Win Shares 8x, and was 2nd 1x.


1.) Offensive Win Shares
1984-85 NBA 28.7 (3)
1986-87 NBA 29.0 (4)
1987-88 NBA 39.6 (1)
1988-89 NBA 42.7 (1)
1989-90 NBA 44.3 (1)
1990-91 NBA 40.6 (1)
1991-92 NBA 34.2 (1)
1992-93 NBA 34.1 (1)
1995-96 NBA 38.5 (1)
1996-97 NBA 37.3 (1)
1997-98 NBA 28.6 (2)
NBA 413.5 (1)
Career 413.5 (1)


2.) MJ has led in Win Shares 8x, and was 2nd 1x



Win Shares
1984-85 NBA 40 (3)
1986-87 NBA 43 (4)
1987-88 NBA 58 (1)
1988-89 NBA 59 (1)
1989-90 NBA 59 (1)
1990-91 NBA 56 (1)
1991-92 NBA 51 (1)
1992-93 NBA 50 (1)
1995-96 NBA 57 (1)
1996-97 NBA 52 (1)
1997-98 NBA 45 (2)


3.)



MJ has led in Win Shares Above Average 8x, no one else has led by even half that.

Win Shares Above Average
1987-88 NBA 28.0 (1)
1988-89 NBA 27.5 (1)
1989-90 NBA 26.5 (1)
1990-91 NBA 26.5 (1)
1991-92 NBA 24.5 (1)
1992-93 NBA 23.5 (1)
1995-96 NBA 28.0 (1)
1996-97 NBA 24.0 (1)


In my mind MJ is the GOAT, and I provided ample evidence of why I feel that way, but it is really close as guys like Kareem, Russell, Wilt, Magic and Bird on right their in the discussion, but when you consider how good MJ was on both ends of the court and how efficient he was as a player and the fact that he was a guard that in itself helps his case much more.

Also let's not forget MJ is currently the only player to average 30+ ppg for a career in the playoffs and he is the only one to do so in the season, playoffs and finals and he has the highest average in each of them and his has the most playoff points ever.

Here was a clip in 1993 where even Jerry West mentioned MJ was the best
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1mFE_ekV7E&mode=related&search=


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZquLVr3MeGk&feature=related
@ the 1:30 mark, Dick Stockton refers to Jerry West mentioning that MJ was the greatest ever period.


Pat Riley mentions that Jordan will always be considered the best
http://youtube.com/watch?v=0565oawy9Ak


7:55 mark Isiah Thomas debates on why MJ was the best over Wilt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nP-Rm2atzU0


http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/2003-02-06-dupree-team_x.htm



Oh and you can see some of the numbers above.[/QUOTE]

 

ROFLMAO

Rudy was a griddy player and a smart scout. as a coach, he was mere pedestrian. the Dream-led ROX teams would still have won the 2 rings regardless of who was coaching

 

MJ and it isn't really close.

 

I love how people say "without Pippen, MJ doesn't win one ring" like its a proven fact. Like Pippen is the one who made MJ. I guess Pip can win without MJ and not the other way around right? Not only that, but its basically pointless to make that statement. Of course MJ doesn't win 6 titles without Pippen. Just like Hakeem doesn't win his first without rookies Cassell and Horry and doesn't get his 2nd without Drexler. Does that take anything away from how great they were? Nope. Newsflash, if it wasn't for Jordan, the Bulls would have never won one championship. You can't fault him for playing with Pippen.

 

Michael Jordan is a beast. KB isn't as good.....

 

Exactly. Jordan played in an era when only men could get into the paint at will. He would be averaging 18fts per game if he took that game into the modern NBA. They would have to revert back to the old rules to accommodate Jordan because it would get ridiculous. You would have teams playing their 5th string C from D-League since the entire front line would be fouled out.

 

it is a counter-argument against the baseless claim, so conveneiently made by people, that MJ won 6 rings by himself, as if his teammates had nothing to do with it. !

 

You are joking right? Rudy had the Lakers record on pace to win the same amount of games as PJ did with the same roster. Rudy won a bronze medal with 11 WNBA players and Brad Miller. Who is the last American coach to bring home a gold medal? Rudy.