Is James Harden's success in Houston proof Manu Ginobili could have been a star as the lead dog?

and he still hasn't won a playoff series without the help of two of the greatest players in the nba.

i've seen zach take a team on his back in the playoffs and will that team to win. I've seen zach average 20/10 more consistently than any player not named duncan over the last 10 years.

throw out the numbers what has harden done? nothing. i mean you what to talk about players lets talk tmac. I know you probably don't think that this could happen to harden, but tmac was a score that couldn't win a playoff series as the prime guy.

again i don't care about awards and what other people think. It is clear that zach got hosed most of his career because of the jailblazers era. That's like saying Isaiah Thomas wasn't a top player because he wasn't on the dream team.

we all know politics plays a huge role. zach's 20/10 will stand the test of time and if you can't see the grewatest in that without somebody telling you it's great, i just don't know what to tell you.

 

Strangely enough, I have to agree. Marc Gasol is already on his way to becoming the best Center ever to play the game, Courtney Lee the best SG, Mike Conley the best 3-way guard ever. Zach Randolph is basically Michael Jordan in a PFs body.

It's a shame that Rudy Gay, who many consider to be better than Durant and Lebron combined, didn't remain in the Grizzlies. Otherwise, the Grizzlies would have at least 25 championships by now in the last 3 years, along with a heavy weight title and consensus best soccer team in the world.

 

20/10 is a necessary for any big that wants to be great...it's a starting point. You talking about it as if he averaged 30/15. Zach averaged 20/10 5 times in his career. 5. It's impressive but far from "Standing the test of time" The way you made it seem like he's been doing it for a decade. By comparison, a true all time great Garnett averaged it 9 seasons straight.

Kevin Love 3x 20/10
Blake Griffin Twice as well.
Two young players that I'm sure will have averaged it 5x by the end of their careers. Lets not even mention the all time greats like Garnett and Duncan, both doing it 9x straight. Karl Malone and Charles Barkley and the list goes on. The greats at that position 20/10 was a starting point. He's not putting up some legendary statline lol.

He has had some really good years, a really good player that most guys coming into the league would be lucky to have his career. A legendary Memphis Grizzly player, no doubt...but come on. Harden is a MVP talent, all NBA first teamer.

That's like saying Joe Johnson is a legendary SG because he had some 20ppg seasons...well yeah, if you are going to be a top SG in the NBA you are at least going to have to give your teams 20ppg...at least.

Then you bring up Isiah Thomas who won championships leading a team...right.

Hey, we get it man. He's been a consistent player and has made the Grizzlies relevant. First player to do that, will have a special place among all Grizzly fans. Yao Ming was a great player too but you won't find Rocket fans calling him better than Shaquille Oneal or Kareem. We just respect what he's done for the franchise and the fun times we had watching him.

 

so james harden is kareem abdul jabber now? holy ****

 

If Zach Randolph can be considered a "legend of the game", then yes...James Harden very well could be on his way to Kareem status.

 

garnet did it eight times. duncan did it 9 times. zach is at 5. So yeah, zach isn't garnet or tim duncan. but those guys were the top 2 power forwards in the history of the game.

zach at 5 makes a case being just below that level, not an all time great, but a legend of the game. he's probably been a top 5 power forward in his era for the duration of his career.

harden is a good player but he isn't close to mj or kobe, at least not as close as zach is to kg and duncan.

harden needs to win in the playoffs. period. he could average 40 a game and if he don't win in the playoffs he hasn't done crap.

 

Harden isn't Kobe or MJ but Zach is no Harden.

Legend, you stretching it there. 10 years from now no one is going to say Zach Randolph is one of the greatest PFs to play. Malone and Barkley did 20/10 for most of their careers.

Harden again in 3 seasons as a Rocket, will finish top 5 in MVP voting, likely to get another nod on the first team as well. 6th man award AND finals appearance.

Sorry, you can't count Manu's accomplishments as a 6th man and ignore Harden's.

Also the Basketball Hall of Fame also includes international competition. Zach hasn't even been selected on the national team man. All of the players we are talking about at least played for their national teams lol. James Harden at 25 has TWO Gold Medals.

 

Again, I know we are going to disagree on this, but to your point about nobody is going to look back at zach as an all time great. Well, I look back at guys like Antonio Davis and Dale Davis as all time greats. I remember rick mahorn fondly.

Conversely, I don't really see guys like tmac and steve francis that way at all. In fact, my opinion is robert horry had a better career than both francis and tmac. Horry is a legend, tmac and francis were basically just good scorers.

I enjoy more about the game of basketball than scoring. I also think Mutumbo was a better player than tmac and certainly more accomplished in the playoffs.

Look at guys like hedo or peja, I remember them far more than I remember francis or tmac. The sam goes for sam cassell, sam is a legend, derek harper is a legend, starks is a legend.

 

'what' trying sooooooo hard. I love it so much.

 

I'm a big Harden fan and have no doubt he will have a monstrous career when it's all said and done. I have to agree with What at the current moment about Harden's accomplishments, if Harden wins a few playoff series and even the ultimate prize than this argument will be moot. Great discussion though on both sides, keep them coming guys!

 

Manu on a per minute basis in his prime was incredible. I just don't think his body would have held up as the lead dog if he played with as much responsibility as Harden does.

Manu would have to change his game because he really is reckless. He would lose some effectiveness.

I would say for a game or a series Manu could thrive as a lead dog. But not for a season.

 

Comparing the two players' age accomplishments is somewhat unfair. Ginobili entered the NBA at 25. Harden did at 20. What would Harden have become if he played his first 5 years of pro ball in Europe?

I really think the two players are in very different situations to draw too much parallel to their career. Ginobili came into the league playing with a team that already had a future HOFer, with a very stable organization with a winning culture. Harden's team were just starting to come of age with a very young core with a coach that was far from proven.

The only similarity is that they both came off the bench with some elite sets of skills.

 

Are you saying the NBA develops talent better than Euroleague? yah! So awesome to see you say that. It wasn't more than a decade ago (ISO era) when Fran Blinebury, cfnetters and other media were saying the very opposite. They were saying Ginobody and other Euroleaguers were more prepared for the NBA than US players.

Your post is indicative of people coming full circle and now saying what's true...for player development, it is better to get into the NBA as soon as you can.

 

Skill-wise Ginobili could have done it, but he wouldn't have been an MVP candidate like Harden and his body wouldn't have held up any better than it did. Health is huge in the making of a star. Kobe would still be a top tier player without those injuries. No one would talk about Marc Gasol being the best center if Dwight never had the bad back.

 

Obliging is a future HOF, but he would've never been an MVP caliber player averaging 24 ppg, regularly on a mediocre team versus a great system. Yes that does matter.

 

*fixed*

 

Well, you'll find people here agree with you on Tmac and Francis...

But it's very interesting that you count guys like Horry and Cassell's accomplishments even though they were role players and ignore Harden's accomplishments when he was a 6th man.

 

Horry won countless games making big shot after big shot. Cassell took teams on his back in his later career in the playoffs.

Harden, as a sixth man, blew the finals. He has maybe had one big game winning shot which was the shot he made to send the grizz-thunder series into double overtime, I think it was.

I am judging playoff accomplishments.

 

I guess you missed the Thunder-Spurs series then...

Also, Horry did not win countless games. He just made big shots but those teams would not even be in that position if they were led by Robert Horry.

 

Regardless of who is right about horry, you get my point right? If horry had 1 series that he made a big shot, he wouldn't have been a legend, just because harden played okay in one series doesn't make it derivative of who he is. He bowed out in too many series: the finals and portland last year.

Rob has made shots like that in multiple games and multiple series. That's why I discount harden's sixth man stint. He didn't really do much in it.