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Is it just me, or is Al Jefferson the second best center in the NBA?

Discussion in 'NBA Dish' started by Tom Bombadillo, May 2, 2009.

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WeMissDekeMan Rookie

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echu888 said:

What's the +/- for Yao vs. Dwight?

I recall recently hearing a player comment that Orlando was actually a better team without Howard on the floor. Maybe that was just disrespectful talk though.
Click to expand...

Yao's +/- overall is better than Howard

http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp?pcomb=1&season=42008&split=9&team=
Post season
Yao: +32
Howard: N/A - Doesn't tell you because it's lower than 17.

http://www.nba.com/statistics/plusminus/plusminus_sort.jsp?pcomb=1&season=22008&split=9&team=
Regular season
Yao: +459
Howard: +403

Also, Yao does do better against the elite centers in the league, Howard usually just chews up the scrub centers or power forwards forced to play centers.

Yao is the better player....I find it funny how everybody is saying Howard is better because he can be fronted. Well, who cares if you can beat the front, he can't even beat 1 on 1 post defense, so it shouldn't matter.

#21 WeMissDekeMan, May 2, 2009

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http://www.thedreamshake.com/2009/4/7/825187/a-quick-note-on-the-yao-vs-howard

Dwight Howard is better than Yao Ming? You can't be serious...

I've read countless arguments that crown Howard as the king of all centers. There's definitely a case for Howard. Problem is, his case is nowhere near as convincing as Yao's. This is why I think Yao is better:

Head to Head:

I'll get this out of the way, because for some reason, not many people are aware of Yao's domination of Dwight over the years. Take a look for yourself at the head-to-head statistics, courtesy of Basketball-Reference.
Click to expand...

If you can't read that, then click here to see an enlarged version plus the complete list of game logs for their head to head match ups. Like I said, it's not even close. Even better, the Rockets are 6-2 against the Magic in the 8 games that Yao has faced Dwight. Just in case you want to get into a "which team is better" debate...

General Talent:

Here is my somewhat biased player analysis, as I have not seen Dwight Howard play as much as Yao. That said, I believe what I have written down is a generally accurate portrayal of Dwight, and though it is jumbled and rushed, it should make sense:

* Post Moves -- Yao. I think Dwight has a more polished post game than most give him credit for. He has excellent footwork, and his jump hook in the lane is slowly progressing. That said, Yao Ming is the best post-up player in the entire league. He has a turnaround fadeaway jumper, a hook shot (with both his right and left hands), and a nice one-dribble move into the lane that can get him separation for a jumper. The one thing Howard needs to work on, besides his general touch from the block, is his ability to counter good defensive position. He can effectively spin and provide himself position for a dunk, but when it isn't there, he runs out of options. Yao is able to pivot and look for a second option if his first is taken away; this is something Dwight still needs to work on. While Dwight will eventually develop better moves, the edge clearly goes to Yao.
* Athleticism -- Dwight. I shouldn't have to explain this one. Dwight can run up and down the court and can dunk at any given moment. Yao is athletic for his massive size, but he simply cannot do what Superman can.
* Post Defense -- Even. This choice may garner the most criticism, because Dwight blocks more shots than Yao. The problem with Dwight is that his blocked shots normally end up in the fifth row. Yao will do that occasionally, but the majority of his blocks are recovered by his teammates. In terms of simply bodying up on the block, Yao has great defensive footwork and doesn't get beat on basic power moves - which is what Dwight brings to the table. Yao and Howard do an equally great job when it comes to help defense and changing shots in the lane, but Dwight has a tendency to break down against centers that have a decent finesse/traditional post move and gives up points while trying to go for the blocked shot. That said, he is still an excellent post defender. So is Yao. So they are equal.
* Perimeter Defense -- Dwight. This one isn't even close. The one way to beat Yao is stay on the perimeter and shoot it from there, which is why Mehmet Okur has a tendency to hurt us. Yao can't help on the pick and roll because it requires too much sudden movement for him, and it hurts our defense quite often. Howard is able to defend on the perimeter and show help on pick and rolls.
* Offensive Range -- Yao. Yao can shoot threes, by the way, but since he doesn't do it enough, I'll leave it out of the argument. However, Yao does make shots from the free throw line and from about fifteen feet on the baseline frequently. Dwight's game doesn't really extend outside of the paint.
* Rebounding -- Dwight. If there is one thing that Yao needs to severely work on, it's his defensive rebounding. Game by game, he will either miss-time his jumps or be too far under the basket to grab a ball that quickly bounces off the rim. Too often, he misses rebounds that he should have easily gotten. Howard scoops up everything around the rim, and is much more effective on the offensive boards as well.
* Free Throw Shooting -- Yao. Yao's the greatest free-throw shooting big man of all time. If you find someone else who is better, let me know. He's been over 80% for his entire career. On the other hand, Dwight shoots 60%. This wouldn't be such an awful number if Superman didn't take so many free throws per game. His average number of attempts from the charity stripe is 11, and for him to only make 6.6 of them per game is a huge detriment to his team. Yao can convert when he is fouled. Dwight is never a sure thing.
* Passing -- Yao. Neither of them are Steve Nash, but Yao is coming along. He is an excellent kick-out passer when the double team comes, and his touch passes in the lane are getting there - he just needs to work on his timing. From what I have read and heard, Dwight's passing has plenty of issues and needs some work. This is the category that I have the least amount of information on Dwight, so if you're going to attack me, look elsewhere, as this would be too easy to criticize.
* Ball handling/hands -- Dwight. While Howard isn't exactly immune to turnovers, he does a much better job catching the ball in the post than Yao. His hands in general are much more polished, and his turnovers rarely come from fundamental movements. Yao, on the other hand, has a tendency to drop easy passes, and he will lose possession of the ball when the slightest contact his made.
* Clutchness -- Yao. First and foremost, you cannot foul Yao in crunch time. If you do, it's an automatic two points for us. Fouling Dwight proves to be effective at times, as his free throw shooting lacks consistency. Aside from free throws, Yao's clutch statistics from 82games.com are far superior to Howard's. While I know that one cannot solely base "clutchness" on a relatively basic statistic such as this, it does serve as a good indicator nonetheless. Yao's are shown first, followed by Dwight's:
Click to expand...

While I can see why many people look at Dwight's dominating dunks, powerful blocked shots, his general athleticism, and his basic numbers as criterion for why he is a better center, I think that there is plenty more to it. Based off this view, Yao is the better center.

Ask me again in five years, and I won't hesitate when I say that it's Dwight Howard. But as for the here and now? Yao Ming.

Don't listen to Mark Jackson.
Click to expand...

#22 WeMissDekeMan, May 2, 2009
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knote32 said:

What happens when they play eachother?

Dwight racking up stats against the crappy(small) Eastern teams does not impress me.

What happens when he plays Yao? Who is the dominant player head to head?
Post those stats.

His rebounding stats are VASTLY overblown because his PF is freaking Rashard Lewis...
(Let us not get in to this debate AGAIN)
Click to expand...

Why not debate it again

Dwight Howard has led the league in total rebounds 4 straight years, 2 before Rashard. That argument actually goes into discrediting Al Jefferson cuz he's played next to poopoo power forwards himself.

The Magic are NOT a better team when Dwight Howard is off the floor.

But Al Jefferson is a certifiable stud. You dont figure Yao Ming to have too many prime years left at 30+ minutes a game... So in a couple years Jefferson can be #2.

How far out the race Andrew Bynum has slipped.

#23 Shroopy2, May 2, 2009
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Shroopy2 said:

Why not debate it again

Dwight Howard has led the league in total rebounds 4 straight years, 2 before Rashard. That argument actually goes into discrediting Al Jefferson cuz he's played next to poopoo power forwards himself.

The Magic are NOT a better team when Dwight Howard is off the floor.

That said, Al Jefferson is a stud. You dont figure Yao Ming to have too many prime years left at 30+ minutes a game. So in a couple years he can be #2.

How far off the pace Andrew Bynum has slipped.
Click to expand...

More like 3 years and his rebounds went up by 2 when Rashard came to the team. So Yes, those stats are clearly inflated.

#24 WeMissDekeMan, May 2, 2009
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I don't think Jefferson is anywhere near as good as Howard. He's good... polished offensive moves... but can't produce like Howard can. He also doesn't draw as much defensive attention as either Yao or Howard.

Jefferson takes way too many shots. He averages 20 shots a game to score 23 ppg... not efficient at all.

Against Yao... he scored in the 30's but needed 30+ shots to get it...

#25 CHI, May 2, 2009
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SuperStar said:

Yah, until they make a statistic category call "Most doubled player in the NBA", I think Dwight is better.

+ Defensive player of the year.
Click to expand...

are you kidding me???? look at Yao's 3pt % thats all that matters!!! lol

#26 cmpatel, May 2, 2009
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Finally!!! this thread officially became "who is better--Yao or Howard?"

sorry, Al Jefferson

#27 jooy, May 3, 2009

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knote32 said:

What happens when they play eachother?

Dwight racking up stats against the crappy(small) Eastern teams does not impress me.

What happens when he plays Yao? Who is the dominant player head to head?
Post those stats.

His rebounding stats are VASTLY overblown because his PF is freaking Rashard Lewis...
(Let us not get in to this debate AGAIN)
Click to expand...

By your standard then it would be Jefferson>Yao>Dwight. Why? Because Al Jefferson dominants Yao head to head!

#28 jlwee, May 3, 2009
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jlwee said:

By your standard then it would be Jefferson>Yao>Dwight. Why? Because Al Jefferson dominants Yao head to head!
Click to expand...

/thread

#29 CountyClerk, May 3, 2009
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jlwee said:

By your standard then it would be Jefferson>Yao>Dwight. Why? Because Al Jefferson dominants Yao head to head!
Click to expand...

Since when did Al Jefferson own Yao? I don't recall that by any means. Does Al give Yao a hard time? Yes, but that's far from owning.

You guys are way into stats. Just watch the game and it's not hard to figure out who's better.

#30 WeMissDekeMan, May 3, 2009
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jlwee said:

By your standard then it would be Jefferson>Yao>Dwight. Why? Because Al Jefferson dominants Yao head to head!
Click to expand...

Post the stats.

And the W/L...

#31 Tom Bombadillo, May 3, 2009
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knote32 said:

Post the stats.

And the W/L...
Click to expand...

Yao vs Big Al Jefferson
http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=mingya01&p2=jeffeal01

Yao: 6-2 16.8 PPG, 6.1 RPG, 1.5 BPG, 59 FG%, 1.9 TOPG
Al: 2-6, 18.8 PPG, 10.6 RPG, 1.4 BPG, 47 FG%, 2.4 TOPG,

I don't see any ownage here.

#32 WeMissDekeMan, May 3, 2009
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knote32 said:

Post the stats.

And the W/L...
Click to expand...

Jefferson has outplayed Yao in recent games.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jeffeal01&p2=mingya01

Jefferson is on a pretty awful Timberwolves team so I don't think it's fair to compare w/l.

#33 SuperStar, May 3, 2009

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SuperStar said:

Jefferson has outplayed Yao in recent games.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jeffeal01&p2=mingya01

Jefferson is on a pretty awful Timberwolves team so I don't think it's fair to compare w/l.
Click to expand...

Then It wouldn't be fair to compare stats either, because one player NEEDS to get the stats because that's their only chance to win. That's not the same for Houston. Are you like a Yao hater or something?

#34 WeMissDekeMan, May 3, 2009
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WeMissDekeMan said:

Then It wouldn't be fair to compare stats either, because one player NEEDS to get the stats because that's their only chance to win. That's not the same for Houston. Are you like a Yao hater or something?
Click to expand...

Exactly....

Wins and losses is the MOST valid stat.

#35 Tom Bombadillo, May 3, 2009
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Dwight Howard's rebound numbers are incredibly inflated because the rest of Orlando's front line can't rebound for ****. If you take away his 14 rebounds a game, Dwight is still good, but wouldn't get all the insane hype thrown his way.

#36 natrix964909, May 3, 2009
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SuperStar said:

Jefferson has outplayed Yao in recent games.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/fc/h2h_finder.cgi?request=1&p1=jeffeal01&p2=mingya01

Jefferson is on a pretty awful Timberwolves team so I don't think it's fair to compare w/l.
Click to expand...

even against an undermanned rockets team, the magic still managed to lose both games against the rockets this year.

#37 rox4lyf, May 3, 2009
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AL Jefferson average 35pts 17rebs 4assts 2.5blks 50FG% 2 games this season against Yao's rockets.

In those 2 games, Yao averaged 19pts 5rebs 3.5blks 2assts 60FG% against Jefferson led Wolves this season.

Yao is better? Because his team won both games? Or Jefferson's team really suck compared to playoffs contended Rockets?
Yao scored less points? Because he is a team player and defered to Artest and Brooks?
Yao grabs less rebounds? Because he is a nice guy and let Scola grabbed all those rebounds?

Sorry 35/17 vs 19/5 was completely dominant! I like Yao but his limitations(stamina, lack of quickness, can't jump) is overshadowed his strengths(excellent offensive games, decent post defense).

#38 jlwee, May 3, 2009

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jlwee said:

Sorry 35/17 vs 19/5 was completely dominant!
Click to expand...

The first game, Jefferson scored 34 points by taking 31 shots. Not dominant at all... That's actually a pretty bad game, IMO.

Second game, Jefferson had 36 points on 30 shots... while Yao had 30 points with 18 shots. Yao wins head-to-head here.

#39 CHI, May 3, 2009
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CHI said:

The first game, Jefferson scored 34 points by taking 31 shots. Not dominant at all... That's actually a pretty bad game, IMO.

Second game, Jefferson had 36 points on 30 shots... while Yao had 30 points with 18 shots. Yao wins head-to-head here.
Click to expand...

Can you imagine how many points Yao could drop if he shot the ball 34 times????

#40 Tom Bombadillo, May 3, 2009

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