Something doesn't sound right about you saying that if I am remembering your heritage correctly from a really old thread. Lets leave it at that and not derail this thread. If you want to start another thread about states/countries tilted to religious intolerance and a pronounced religious influence in the political system.........I will post there.
Ok....here we go... So now it's common knopwledge, is it? Ok...I asked before...cute some other threads you cliam I derailed. And, let's see...in your opinion I purposely asked for a definition of terrorist so I could slam the US, huh? Now that's reverse thinking... Let's go back...you, DD...the thread starter, made a link between the actions described here on 'both sides',and what the US should do about them, as, it is speculated, a third party. The many others started discussing the idea of what a terrorist is so as to distinguish Israeli action from Palestinian action...while talking about what we should do about it, as a third party. I did not make the conversation about the US, it was already there...I did not make the conversation about what a terrorist action is...it was already there... I asked for a definition of terrorist because it has always occured to me that that term is so subjective people rarely question it while looking at the actions of their own nation. " One man's terrorist is another nam's freedom gighter." So, obviously, the 'one man' I wouuld cite for that kind of action in this case is the one looking at the similar actions of another and going "tsk tsk." while patting themselves on the back for being so different. I have a problem with any civilians being targeted...and that is my issue with terrorists...but some of the people in here, DD, repeatedly dismiss the deaths of civilians as long as the people who killed them are on our side..ie, 'freedom fighters' or 'part of war'...That was the issue I was addressing, the hypocrisy of those who shake their heads at the 'other side' killing inoocents, but shrug or reven advocate the opposite in the name of freedom, democracy, our safety, and occasionally reciprocity. If you doubt that this is true, I can provide quotes... I'll give examples of support for not only this country, which I have said positive things about so many times it's not worth repeating all of them, but this administration: * I have said that their handling of what I percieved to be an amazingly difficult situation with regards to Iraq at the beginning of the war was so effectively and quietly done that i would love to hear how the hell they pulled it off. * I have said that Bush's not to distant environmental issues desereved a lot of credit. * I have said that the way in which the US handled, not so much just the war, but the aftermath of the war in Adghanistan was text book, so far. * I have said I fully suported the war in Iraq the 1st time around. * I have said that, pre-war, I supported Bush over Gore, especially because I hoped he was non-partisan. * I have said repeatedly that Colin Powell is the only person in contemporary politics for whom I have a great deal of respect. * And I have said many, many times, especially in Just Another Superpower exactly what i feel is great about this country, and why that makes me fight to preserve it. So now, DD...reverse it. In what way has the administration done the wrong thing in this war? You say you were not convinced it was our fight, not the US's...as his issue was with the UN, who said no go...but ultimately it was the right thing to do anyway, so there goes that 'question'...What have they done wrong? I have cited things they have done right. So that not one good thing about America is crap, and the derailing threads is crap, unless you can cite me all these others threads I am supposed to have done so with. In the meanwhile I reaffirm my statement that you owe me an apology, although I am less optimistic now than I was the 1st time. But more than all that, DD, you just don't get it. I don't usualy speak for others, but in this case i will attempt to do so...Many of us who are against the war feel that this nation is in grave danger ofbecoming something we desperately do not want it to become. We feel that this administration has, time and again, threatened or outright wrecked many of the fundamental principles in action on which this nation has stood for so long...through the patriot Laws...declarations of " With US or against us"...pre-emptive or preventative wars...abandonment of global approval as the deciding factor...statements that we will percieve any nation approaching us in terms of economic or military might as a threat...manipulation of the masses to get approval for war... So, yeah, what we are going to talk about more is the problems...What is the practical use of posting threads to point out what we love about this country? Do you think America needs to hear " My, what lovely anti-trust laws you have."? ..." If I told you you had a beautiful geography, would you hold it against me?"..." Has anyone ever told you that you have the most amazing sports system?" DD...please, what's the point? Many of us feel that this country is in real trouble....it's as if the roof is on fire, and you're pissed we're not pointing out how well the wallpapaer goes with the carpet.
Point #1, I never bashed a religion. I bashed the apartheid policies of a country that my tax dollars are supporting.
MacBeth, Rather then go back and waste my time looking for other threads you have derailed. I will simply point them out from this one forward. I still contend that you were trying to set up your anti - US argument by asking for a definition of a terrorist, so that then you could go off and say....who are we to complain, we have done all of this in the past....yadda...yadda...yadda... You may not like having it pointed out, but it is a pattern in your posts, and you have done it many times in the past. Which is ironic, being that you teach history. You say you have credited the US on numerous occasions but the reason you get labeled as anti US is that you seem to go out of your way to steer an argument so that you can show how bad the USA is, or has been in the past. You did it in this thread, and I will bet money, that you will do it again...and I will be happy to point it out to you. Heck, you may not even know you are doing it. But I do.... DD
The difference is, Mango, that I never defended the actions of the state. I questioned the validity of the the evidence against Saddam Hussein, but I have actually been a strong advocate to cut off funding to Egypt, Jordan, Saudi and other 'muslim' states as well as being very critical towards their leadership. The difference is that the country where I was born and where I pay a pretty sizable tax personally and through my financial company, is almost unwaveringly supporting this regime with billions of dollars annually, weapons and political support. I applauded Bush's attempt to push the peace process, yet I see this as just another Israeli action to incite violence as a means to derail the peace process. This has been a common Israeli technique, because as long as fighting is going on, they can continue to take more land for settlements, and destroy more Palestinian homes and lives to make way for 'any jewish' settler from around the world. I believe this is discrimination and injustice of the most heinous sort, and our support of this governement and its actions has lost us international credibility and will have lasting effects on the US economy.
I've read it, disagreed with plenty in it. Again, my question to you is, exactly what are you physically doing to make the U.S. a better place?. Other than BBS postings, what other activities are you engaged in that will lead to a better tomorrow for the U.S.?
woah... five pages later.... just wanted to answer the question posed at the beginning. YES! but in a cunning way... so a couple of israeli soldiers are killed. then they go out and kill some palestinian civilians knowing full well that there will be reprisals. and that the reprisals will probably not be limited to being against Israeli soldiers this time. israel needs a marketplace/schoolyard bombing badly to get the palestinians back in the doghouse and to discredit the existing palestinian leadership. Abbas has so far had more success than they had ever imagined possible, and now they must certainly be fearful... look at it as a last ditch israeli effort to gain leverage in the negotiations. if Hamas doesn't respond, Israel can simply shrug off this attack as a reprisal and just another targeted assasination against terrorists. If Hamas does respond, Israel can safely back away from this round of negotiations which has turned a bit too sour for them. all this is of course speculation. and that suggesting the Israeli govt would actively bring terrorism upon her people is ludicrous at best. but how else would you explain it? are they really THAT STUPID? the U.S. needs to be watchful. and keep ANYTHING from derailing negotiations this time. there is legitimate hope for a solution this time. let's hope for the sake of world peace dubya keeps exercising his bulldog mentality on this one!
Funny you should mention it... Breaking news -- At least 10 people killed by suicide bomb attack on Jerusalem bus, police say. Watch CNN or log on to http://CNN.com (AOL Keyword: CNN) for the latest news.
I am beginning to think that Israel really does not want peace, or at least their government doesn't. How else can you explain their behaviour. I hope Bush stands up to Sharon and tells him...sorry, no more cash for you...good luck with your country. DD
I have long thought that both sides are either very stupid or don't really want peace. But neither options seem to make sense. First, they can't be that stupid. If they really wanted peace, how could they not see the obvious pattern of escalating violence? It's like two guys, after fighting for a while, decide to say, "OK, let's stop." But while saying this, one guy slap the other's face. And there they go again. And this happened not just once, but repeatedly. Second, that makes me think that maybe they aren't stupid. They just don't really want peace. But that doesn't make sense either. What good is there to keep fighting like that? On the Palestinian side, you might say that they want their homeland back and have the Israelis out of their backyards. Now the Bush administration are pushing for an independent Palestinian state. It seems promising that Israel might accept it, albeit reluctantly. That should be what they want. Why are they sabotaging the effort? On the Israeli side, there is even greater incentive for peace. They have the land. All they want should be just live there peacefully. What does all this violence give them? The only sensible conclusion is that, both sides are led by extremists. I suspect that most ordinary people in there want peace. But the ones in power don't. The Palestinians have always been led by terrorists. Arafat was a terrorist. Terrorists have always been their heroes. That's understandable for a people who are desperate, who had their home gutted, who had their freedom taken away by the occupying force. Hatred against the Jews is prevalent. Kids grow up, even educated, in hatred. This culture of hate that is reinforced from generation to generation has to stop in order to have any hope of peace. The Palestinian people have to clean house from within and root out the terrorists. The Israeli citizens have zero reason to want violence. Do they want more settlement land bad enough to warrant living in terror? I doubt any sensble person would want that. Then the "stupid" reckless actions must be reflecting the agenda of the leadership. These might be motivated by the vision of occupying the whole of Palestine. I don't know. If the Israeli people really want peace, they must get rid of these political leaders and get moderate people on the scene. And the US must show more toughness against the Israeli leadership. Just my 2 cents.
I don't see any of you coming up with a solution to Hamas terrorists. Israel attacked a leading terrorist. If the Palestinians don't do it, Israel must. Why are Hamas leaders walking around Palestinian controlled areas instead of rotting in prison?
Maybe Hamas is following in the footsteps of the Isreali tactics towards the British to get Israel created which included terrorism. Menachim Begin was a known terrorist on Interpol for his role in the massacre of 254 civilians including women and children in the village of Deir Yassin. Ever heard of the Haganah and the Stern Gang?? Do some research into their tactics, these are people that later became the head of the nation. So calling Yasser Arafat a terrorist may be correct, but so should many of the leaders of Israel based on actions done before Israel was created. Now of course its not terrorism, its self-defense. Its ironic how shooting missles into the middle of a city is considered self-defense on the eve of a historic peaceful arrangement. There are extremists on both sides of the spectrum that must be limited. Your rendition of it being a one sided affair because of the blanket term 'terrorism' has holes.
my understanding is that the Israelis, very very early on, indiscriminately burned away entire palestinian towns and farmland. they were targetting civilians indiscriminately. that's terrorism to me.
A Rabbi Describes Zionist Terrorism: Rabbi Moshe Schonfeld in his book `Genocide in the Holy Land' describes the Zionist terrorist attacks against Orthodox Jews and states: "Terrorism has been the capstone of Zionism. One need only remember the tactics of the Irgun in the 1940's, of which Israel's current Prime Minister, Menachem Begin, was a member. Countless terrorist acts, such as those used in 1950-1951 in Baghdad, Iraq, have been attributed to the Zionists - Terrorist acts not only against those opposed to Zionists, but also against their fellow Jews to persuade them to immigrate to Israel. All of these tactics, which most people would agree are despicable, were used. But the worst is the Zionist's denial of the freedom of religious education and religious expression to their fellow Jews." The terrorists having committed the massacres described below as part of organised terror organisations like Hagana, Irgun and Stern Gang are today respected politicians courted by world leaders. Below is a long list of state sponsored terrorism up to the time of the first Intifada: July 2, 1946: The King David Hotel in Jerusalem was bombed, killing 91 people. Menachem Begin, who was later awarded the Nobel Prize for peace, is the same man who planned the destruction of the King David Hotel and the massacre of Deir Yassin. Ex prime minister, Shamir, was originally a member of the Jewish terrorist gang called Irgun, which was headed by none other than Menachem Begin. Shamir later moved over to the even more radical "Stern Gang," which committed many vicious atrocities. Shamir himself has defended the various assassinations committed by the Irgun and Stern gangs on the grounds that "it was the only way we could operate, because we were so small. So it was more efficient and more moral to go for selected targets."
