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Is Harden a top 5 player in the league?

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by swyyyguy, Jul 26, 2016.

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Is Harden a top 5 player in the league?

  1. Yes

    75.0%
  2. No

    25.0%
  1. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Member

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    No... From watching almost every game last season and witnessing his 'let me pretend to play zone so I can just hover around one area of the court so I don't have to run around and expend calories' defense.
     
  2. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Member

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    so how do you explain this:

    Klay Thompson has a DRPM of -0.72 compared to -0.74 for Harden
    Hardens DFG% is 46.8%, the same as Jimmy Butler on a comparable number of attempts.
     
  3. chenjy9

    chenjy9 Numbers Don't Lie
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    Defense doesn't win games, buddy. Being able to outscore the other team, however, does.
     
  4. J Sizzle

    J Sizzle Member

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    "These don't conform with my all-knowing eye-test, therefore it is irrelevant" is probably going to be the response in some form or another.

    Harden had many defensive lapses last season, far too many, in fact, and it is something he must improve on. However...it's amazing how much people love to overinflate such instances and act like it was happening almost every possession on the court, though. Downright amazing.
     
  5. chenjy9

    chenjy9 Numbers Don't Lie
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    It's because you watched a D12 that is quite honestly, a shell of his former self. Back when D12 was still an athletic monster who was fine with playing PnR, he was incredible. He could literally guard anyone, anywhere. He was a thread to get 20/20 every game. He could jump over cars (OK, this might be a bit exaggerated) and no one could stop him from doing so. The main thing is the decline in athleticism without a whit of improvement to any other facet of his game. That really ruined D12.
     
  6. chenjy9

    chenjy9 Numbers Don't Lie
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    I find it hilarious all these people are now complaining about D when:

    1. Harden is not the worst defensive player among guards, not even close IMO

    2. There are top 5 players every year that play the same level of D or worse, yet no one bats an eye (Rose, Nash, Parker to name a few)

    Here is some truth for those people; D is largely a team effort. You can make some key defensive plays here and there, but ultimately D is on the team where teammates cover for each other. While Harden's individual D can definitely use improvement (we all know he is capable), how bad it is was completely blown out of proportions.
     
  7. YOLO

    YOLO Member

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    the fact that klay thompson guards the best perimeter player on the floor every night vs harden guarding the worst needs to be taken into account.
     
  8. vlaurelio

    vlaurelio Member

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    so when Rox plays GS, who does both guard?

    and how do you explain this? Hardens DFG% is 46.8%, the same as Jimmy Butler on a comparable number of attempts.
     
  9. YOLO

    YOLO Member

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    its a simple statement that is true. just something that should be acknowledged instead of looking at a number thinking it tells the entire story.

    klay obviously guards harden haha. harden starts on barnes. its that simple
     
  10. HardenTime

    HardenTime Member

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    draymon and iggy were guarding harden in the playoffs
     
  11. YOLO

    YOLO Member

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    klay guards harden. don't be this straight harden homer and think any different. its not even debatable
     
  12. J Sizzle

    J Sizzle Member

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    Even though this isn't always the case, sure, it can be taken into account.

    You should also take into account Harden's offensive workload is vastly more than Thompson's, which should be taken into account as well.
     
  13. jordnnnn

    jordnnnn Member

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    Also have to take into account that when selfish fat boy Harden actually decides to pass to his teammates it's a late shot clock bullet forcing his teammates into bad shots. Happens about every other possession.
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. ryano2009

    ryano2009 Member

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    I guess cp3, Russ and curry play defense..huh??
     
  15. ryano2009

    ryano2009 Member

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    Hmmm.. did you the playoffs series..?I don't know if you did, but most of the time they were switching on him, green iggy and klay all guarded harden durring the playoffs, get your facts straight.
     
  16. larsv8

    larsv8 Member

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    Oh, I see this lazy and stupid narrative has come back.

    Steve Nash
    Charles Barkley
    Steph Curry
     
  17. fchowd0311

    fchowd0311 Member

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    From personal experience, the type of offense Harden performs has less strain on the lungs and burns less calories than Klay Thompson, Reggie Miller, Rip Hamilton type players who run off ball all the time on half court sets.

    You can make an argument that Harden has more mental stress but I wouldn't be surprised of Klay Thompson burns more calories in a game.
     
    #357 fchowd0311, Aug 9, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2016
  18. Mathloom

    Mathloom Shameless Optimist

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    There's a specific quality about Harden that has made me give him a pass for his defense. It's a quality that at any given time maybe 5 players on the planet own.

    When I really look at Harden's 4 seasons with the Rockets and the roster around James those 4 seasons. When I look at how many minutes he plays and just how often he is the decision maker on offense. The best player he has played with here is a Dwight Howard with reduced athleticism and injury trouble, a player who would not have been a top 2 player on any contender the last 4 years. Then I look at OKC and how coming off the bench, his team won consistently and he was the 3rd or 4th best player as a youngster. Then I look at how his teams in college overachieved.

    It strikes me that James Harden on his own, almost entirely useless on the defensive side of the ball gives you a mind blowing number of wins. With (at best) below average supporting cast in 3 of the last 4 seasons, he's given us 41/45/54 wins and playoffs every one of those seasons. With a mostly beasting, sometimes injured Dwight Howard and some surprise performers, he took us to a rare division championship, 3rd best team in the league, 2nd in the West.

    James Harden's baseline contribution to a team, it seems, is he guarantees playoffs in the WEST without even playing defense, without having a great coach even. Don't underestimate how INCREDIBLE that is. Look at Cousins, Wall, Lillard, Butler, Melo, Klay, Draymond, and those people who can be considered in the top 10.

    How many people give you, basically, 41 wins guaranteed in the West as BY FAR the best player on the team? Someone like Curry might very well be that good but he certainly hasn't demonstrated it. The people who may be able to make that claim are guys like Duncan (few years ago), Lebron, Durant, probably Westbrook, younger Nowitzki, maybe Paul George, and we'll see shortly about Kawhi and Anthony Davis.

    That's it as far as I'm concerned and I really stretched it out. That's 8 players, only 6 of them still capable, and 2-3 of them still have to prove a bit more.

    Is Harden a top 5 player? Whatever he is, I would HAPPILY take him 5th overall in a draft of all NBA players. I would not be disappointed with that outcome at all. At all.

    Now let's get to work on seeing if we can bring him into conversation for a dynasty by working on his trust of teammates as well as moving off the ball defensively and offensively. But if he even marginally improves at some of those things or significantly improves at one of those things, how is he not the best player on earth? That's the question we should be exploring.
     
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  19. J Sizzle

    J Sizzle Member

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    ...and? We seriously debating calories over role on team?
     
  20. jordnnnn

    jordnnnn Member

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    Hard to put it better than this.
     

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