There's absolutely nothing inconsistent in there with what I put in the other thread. Shaq was big and strong, but he did not have the physical advantages that wilt had, or play in a hands off, fast paced era like wilt did....not even close. As a consequence, he didn't average 50 pts and 25 rebounds per game. But were he playing against a bunch of short guys in Chuck Taylors, he'd come pretty close to that, given their remarkably similar efficiencies, and possibly exceed it, given that Shaq was nearly as efficient as Wilt, in a more difficult era. If you think otherwise, elaborate.
Unbelievable. Did somebody actually say Dream was not the greatest defensive player of his era? Blasphemy! ..... Ban the ignorant punk! please.
1. Wilt 2. Dream 3. Russell 4. Jabbar 5. Shaq Wilt had Dream's athleticism and Shaq's strength Russell had athleticism and timing but did not have Dream's moves and offensive skill set Jabbar was tall and didn't have enough strong centers to compete with Shaq is just huge and powerful- not much a basketball players- just a monster. Dream is great because he was quick, strong, athletic (out the roof), agile- He could have played any position on the court except point guard when he was younger and he developed all the skills as he grew older. He was great defensively and offensively. I am totally prejudiced and can't believe any die hard Rocket fan would list him below the top 4.
Ok, so you shouldn't question a league where a 6'6" player can score 80 and average 36, fine, I won't question a league where a 7'2" player like Wilt averages 50 either. Name 3 centers that have accomplished more than he has in the NBA, of course during the same time frame, hate on him all you want but Shaq is the only center who has accomplished more. What was Hakeem's impact? One MVP and two championships? If Russell does half of what he did it would still be two or three MVPs and five or six championships. Hakeem didn't have to deal with Wilt, that alone should qualify Russell's competition, not even counting Bob Pettit, Nate Thurmond, Dolph Schayes, Willis Reed, Walt Bellamy, Dave DeBusschere, Jerry Lucas, on the big man side and Oscar Robertson, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, Hal Greer, Rick Barry, Walt Frazier, Earl Monroe, Dave Bing, Lenny Wilkens, Billy Cunningham, on the little man side. But if you don't respect what Russell accomplished then you cannot respect any of those players because he did it against those guys. World was flat? What? Russell played in the 1960s not the 1360s... The players that played with and against him say he was the best or right behind Wilt. I think they would know more than you or me... Of course he would be more than an All Star; give him half his accomplishments and he's the best player of this current generation, second best in Hakeem's, obviously not to Hakeem. First he didn't play with 9-10 Hall of Famers, he played with 8. Second he won when the Celtics had Hall of Famers on the bench and scrubs on the bench. More than half of the Hall of Famers on the Celtics won less than 5 or 6 of the championships with him, one won just one. Considering the fact that everyone else in the NBA had Hall of Famers on their rosters it wasn't that big of a deal, especially during the last handful of championship runs. Lets just say that in 20 years Robert Horry and Sam Cassell make the Hall of Fame, would you be ok with people saying that Hakeem could only win when he had Hall of Famers on his team? You don't think it's possible, but if K.C. Jones could get in so could Sam, and if Heinsohn could get in so can Horry. Point is that a few of those Hall of Famers became Hall of Famers after their careers, during no one was thinking about them belonging in the group of greatest basketball players of all time. All those players listed above were athletes, he played against them every night, no nights off like today's players have against the scrub teams and players of the league. In a league with more of an emphasis on defense wouldn't a defender like Russell be more valuable? Especially now that team defense is stressed, now that you can't touch a guy without fouling him and now post players are almost extinct. And to those who think Hakeem is the best center of all time, is he a better player than Jordan? Magic? Bird? Because if you think he's the best center of all time, and centers are the biggest impact makers in basketball, then you have to think he's better than those three.
First off, if you measure Dream's impact on the game by the trophies he collected, I question whether you saw him play much at all. As has been pointed out more than once in this thread, Hakeem was robbed of several shiny things he could have had in his trophy case. Your argument about Russell, who I got to see play, by the way, on TV back when the dinosaurs roamed, is also way off base. He was surrounded by amazing talent. Dream wasn't. As a second year player, Hakeem made it to the Finals with what I consider to be the deepest team in Rockets history, especially if one includes Lucas for part of the season. It was his second year, and he was better than Ralph Sampson, who would have been a HOFer had he not been injured. He took Ralph's position from him in his second freakin' year. After that season, Ralph was never the same, and the depth was gone, lost to that white powder. I don't know what the hell you're saying with regard to Horry and Cassell. Russell was a great player. No question about it. I would take Hakeem over him in a New York minute. And what the hell does Jordan, Bird and Magic have to do with the center position? Magic played center when he had to, in his youth, during the playoffs. It was a freak occasion. Other than that, with all due respect, the post makes no sense.
I watched an old Kareem try to guard Dream, I watched a young Shaq try to guard Dream, I watched Robinson, Ewing and Mourning try to guard Dream. I would love for Bill Russell and Wilt Chamberlain to have had the opportunity to meet the Dream shake, the reverse spin, the fall away jumper and the quickness and strength of Dream. Dream doesn't take a back seat on either end of the court. (So says one big Rocket Homer)
I, too, agree that this is more of a slam dunk than the Jordan question. Hakeem is virtually on par with Kareem for the 3rd/4th best center of all time. Wilt, Russell, Kareem/Hakeem, Shaq
Still, the difference is huge, 11 championships to 2, 5 MVPs to 1. There's no doubt as to who accomplished more in the NBA. EDIT: How else do you measure impact to the game? I've seen Russell play too... There was more talent on the early 60s Celtics than late, and more talent in the NBA in the late 60s than early 60s, yet the Celtics always won. Ok, but do you think Hakeem was as good in 86 as he was in 93-95? A lot of his team success had to do with the team itself, but IMO, most of it goes to him peaking during that time. You could put those years up against any of the years from any center in NBA history and he would be the best or very very close. What's so difficult to understand? Horry and Cassell aren't considered Hall of Fame players right now, neither were Heinsohn and K.C. Jones when they played, but they made the Hall of Fame eventually. I asked if those who thought Hakeem was the best center of all time if they also thought that he was the best player of all time. IMO, being the best center of all time would make you the best player of all time, better than Jordan, Magic, and Bird.
Top 5 centers in my list is: Wilt, Hakeem, Kareem, Russell n Shaq I put Wilt because he totally dominated center position in his time. I mean come on career 30.1ppg and 22 Rpg thats just freakin amazing. Just imagine how many blocks he had?? He must have passed Hakeem in all-time block list if they had recorded that stats. Hakeem for 2nd becuase he is the only center that i know that was an all-around player and he dominated other great centers (Ewing, D-Robinson n Shaq). Hakeem was also by far the quickest center of all time. He could score, rebound, block, pass and steals. He was an offensive force as well as defensive force. For Hkeem to face greats like Ewing, Robinson n Shaq and overpower them, easily makes him Top 3 centers of All-time. No other centers that i know faced such great centers and dominated them. I put Shaq at no. 5 only because he has not faced much competition at Center spot that any other centers and also when he was faced against Hakeem he was no match.
[/QUOTE] JumpMan on Hakeem's dominating performance in beating Showtime and taking the '86 celtics to 6 games in his second year i don't think we're the ones in need of a lesson on respect. einstein russell has the chemistry and roles of the team planned out to the nanometer and nanosecond to eke out 1 point victories over juggernauts (even though his team was easily the best in the nba for 10 years running), but hakeem wins and he doesn't know what he was doing and really only peaked for 3 years. oh, and he's not the best defensive player of his era either. that comment above pretty much ended any reason to keep debating.
Like someone said that the real question is if Hakeem is on the top 3?, that way, the poll will be more closer I think he is.
If you ask Hakeem himself to compare his knowledge of the game in 93-95 to his knowledge of the game in 86 I bet he would tell you that there is no comparison. That was my point... Hakeem was the brain and the brawn on those championship teams. Concerning his actual physical game... You can't tell me that he had his Dream Shake in 86... You can't tell me that he had his foot work mastered in 86... His passing down in 86... Knowledge of spacing... Knowing that he can block a shot without even having to jump... Just like Jordan when he came back from baseball, his knowledge of the game was at its peak then, which is a lot more important than physical peaks. But if you want to bow out of this discussion because you didn't understand what I thought was a simple point then go ahead. EDIT: I never said he wasn't the best defensive player of his era, I actually said he was, all I said was that you can't debate whether or not Russell was, but you can debate Hakeem.
In seasons where Jabbar won the MVP he played against such centers as: Wilt Chamberlain Dave Cowens Wes Unseld Nate Thurmond Paul Silas Connie Hawkins Elvin Hayes Bob Lanier Bob McAdoo Robert Parish That is ten hall of fame centers that played in Kareem's MVP seasons. He also played against other great centers later in his career like Olajuwon. When your career spans 20 years, it is hard to avoid playing against strong centers.
Also remember Kareem won 3 of 3 NCAAs, Russell won his last two NCAAs at University of San Francisco--not exactly UCLA. These are on top of their 11 & 6 NBA championships and 5+ individual MVPs. This makes it awefully hard to argue Hakeem should go down as a greater basketball player than either. Kareem has a major cumulative statistical edge as well. Wilt could get an arugment over Russell and Jabbar as best ever because his individual stats and physical attributes are just so far out there ahead of them, and everyone else to ever play. Given Wilt has the same number of pro and college championships as Hakeem, but squashes him in statistical accompliments, individual awards, and physical attributes--I in now way see an argument for putting Hakeem ahead of him. Now this is not to say if Hakeem was born when Kareem or Russell or Wilt were and trained in basketball at an early age like them he couldn't have done what they did, maybe more, but in the end I think we have to go mainly on their team and individual records and Hakeem is top 5 but not top 3 once you do this. I can buy Hakeem being listed as high as 4, though based on record I really think Shaq has earned that spot.
As good as Russell was on D, does he leave the paint to get a finger on Starks' shot? Does Russell spot Kevin Johnson a half court lead and chase him down? Does Russell routinely finish in the top ten in steals? OK, to the larger question... The big difference between Dream and any other center that's ever played is this... If you're a coach in a tight game with 2 minutes left and you have Dream against a team of all-time all-stars, you have the luxury of saying "Ok Dream, no help for you on Wilt, Russell, Shaq, or Kareem... we're not going to let the other guys beat us." And you have a high degree of confidence that Dream's one-on-one defense in the low post is going to be good enough to steal the ball, force a turnover, force a bad shot, get a block, or get a key rebound at some point in the waning seconds... and you then have a chance to win the game. If you're coaching on the other side and it's a tight game with 2 minutes left, it doesn't matter if you have Russell, Wilt, Shaq, or Kareem, you're bringing the double team when the ball touches Dream's hands. The combo of offense and defense is what makes Dream the best.
Dream didn't stop a Baby Shaq in 95, and he didn't stop the not so special Robinson and Ewing from 94-95. I think all got over 20PPG against Dream in playoff series. What Dream did in his prime was do more damage to them than vice versa, though Baby Shaq faired the best. Dream isn't stopping Wilt or Kareem in their prime either. Noone ever did. No individual ever stopped Dream in his prime either, though he never did figure out how to play Seattle's cheating defense.
