I put Hakeem in the top three. I think it should also be noted that Hakeem dominated his position at 6'10.5" Almost every night he gave up something in height to his opponent (and he played against 5 of the "50 greatest" - Walton doesn't count because he was hobbled by then).
Hakeem certainly played against a higher level of competion than big men before him or now. Patrick Ewing, David Robinson, Kareem-in 1986 playoffs, a young Shaq, and that brutal Seattle zone defense by George Karl. Hakeem never had a GM until in his 30's who would build a tam around him with a modicum of talent to enable him to win. Recall Steve Patterson working the deal to trade Hakeem Olajuwon for Rony Seikaly?
Sure it is. Wilt Chamberlain, Oscar Robertson, Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Bill Russell, Larry Bird. I just named 6 guys that many argue are better than Michael Jordan, putting MJ at 7. There is absolutely no way that Hakeem isn't the #5 center of all time. Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Shaq, and no one else even has an argument.
couldn't find the post (apparently things go back like a month on there or i don't know how to search). anyway, shaq just played season 14, so here are hakeem and shaq's stats through season 14. Hakeem - 23.8 ppg, 11.9 rpg, 2.7 apg, 3.4 bpg, 1.85 spg, 51.5% fg Shaq - 26.3 pgg, 11.8 rpg, 2.8 apg, 2.5 bpg, .7 spg, 58.0% fg hakeem actually wins rebounds (i mean it's basically a tie, but nonetheless it's not shaq's stats as most, even myself at one point in time, probably think), shaq obviously wins ppg and fg% by a large margin, hakeem obviously wins blocks and steals by a huge margin. now onto playoff stats through the 14th season. Hakeem - 27.0 ppg, 11.6 rpg, 3.34 apg, 3.42 bpg, 1.71 spg, 53.0 fg% Shaq - 25.6 ppg, 12.2 rpg, 2.87 apg, 2.20 bpg, 0.56 spg, 56.6 fg% shaq actually loses the ppg battle, has his fg% margin decreased, and takes an even bigger beatdown on blocks. does increase the rebound advantage significantly. turnovers are pretty much dead even. i think if you go back 1 year to only 13 years, shaq catches up 1.0 ppg, and .3 rpg b/c the 14th playoff year was longer for shaq (like 23 to 4 games or something) and thus more games were dragging down his stats (but adding to his legacy even though someone else was carrying the team) so it would only be fair to mention that. while some of these are helped by the increased pace from when hakeem started, it was about half of hakeem's career spent at a different pace, i don't feel like calculating the difference and am not sure how best to do it anyway, and at least as far as rebounds are concerned, i don't think they've changed a lot over the last 20 years (but don't hold me to that). so there are some stats to think about.
francis...you also have to look at shaq's atrocious ft% which probably even's out hakeem and shaq for their scoring efficiency. also I believe hakeem's career team accomplishments were limited with sampson's career ending early. it would have been nice to see those 2 together longer.
1990? Sorry but to my eye the Hakeem in 1990 was not the same as the 92-96 Hakeem, and it showed in the Rox 41-41 record.(it also shows in his PER). The fact is his offensive game, between 90 and 93, took quantum leaps as he perfected his passing, and his scoring and shooting increased marketdly as it went up. If you loook at his adjusted stats it's really no contest in spite of his great defensive numbers.
Honestly, at worse, top six. I think it's Wilt Russ Kareem Shaq Hakeem Shaq, with his size and ability, and if he worked at his free throw shooting, should have been the best center ever.
whether i'm being a "homer" or not, I say he's one of the top 5 PLAYERS ever to play. The guy was just dominant beyond belief, redefining the center position.
What I don't undertstand is why Russell gets so much love? The guy was a great defender, but average on the offensive end. Hakeem was great on BOTH ends of the floor, and against better competition than Russell or Wilt faced on a daily basis. The question should not be "Is Hakeem top 5" it should be "Is he the greatest center ever?" because a case can be made that Hakeem was the greatest center to ever play the game. Shaq is great, but he can't play defense...only did it one year. Hakeem is the only game changer on both ends of the floor, and THAT, in my book, makes him the best ever. PERIOD ! DD
There shouldn't even be a question to Russell's top 3 status at not only center but overall player. All you have to do is point at his 11 championships to prove that no one was better in the team game and then point to his 5 MVPs to prove that few were better as individual players. Pointless to argue with people who just refuse to respect what he accomplished.. Russell dealt with this guy... <object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/6QmhTWmAaBc"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/6QmhTWmAaBc" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object> He proved himself.
Some people point to the 9 HOF's he played with. Remember he was a revolutionary; sportswriters were so awestruck by his defensive ability (the fact that he was bringing defense to a game where it hadn't mattered so far) and his knowledge of the game, they said all kinds of things about him. He was the first to make defense an integral part of the game, but nothing proves his defense was any better than young Hakeem, especially when you consider the unathletic scrubs who had no idea how to use their body to avoid being blocked... this was all happening for the first time in the 60s.
Russell won championships with Hall of Famers on the bench and scrubs on the bench... Early 60s Celtics had lots of talent (Cousy, Sharman, Ramsey, K.C. Jones, Sam Jones, Tom Heinsohn, Russell), mid to late 60s Celtics weren't nearly as good (Cousy, Sharman, Ramsey, Heinsohn, K.C. were retired replaced by Havlicek and Howell for one season, Sam Jones and Russell were close to retirement) and the rest of the league was a lot better yet they still won championships. Not everyone who played in the 60s were unathletic scrubs (you don't even have to be athletic to be a great player either), Russell was not the only center or player that played defense, his defense was just the best, Hakeem's defense was not as good as Russell's nor was he as good of a rebounder or nearly as smart as Russell. But if you really believe those things then there's nothing we can discuss on this matter...
The Russell question is the classic sports chicken or the egg question - was it Russell's greatness that made his teammates HOF'ers or was it the opposite? Hard to find a concrete answer.
a couple of those guys would no way be hall of famers if they hadn't been on those teams. even by 50's and 60's standards.
Again, like I said, Russell wrote the text book on defense. Because he was the innovator, people like to tag him with the title of GOAT. Basketball was a monopoly in the 60's run by the Celtics, and Russell was their big man. All that national exposure + Russell bringing defense into an offensive league... he was the undisputed GOAT of his ERA along with Wilt. But don't you question the quality of a league when someone can average 50 ppg for an entire season? Or puts up 100 points in 1 game? The NBA is too competitive for that to happen now, you only hear about the big kid in HS basketball putting up those numbers. Wilt and Russell were the big kids. But watching Russell on ESPN classic, and looking at Hakeem throughout his career, Russell had no "instinctual" ability Hakeem lacked and both had super human athleticism. Russell was the first to 'study' his opponents which gave him an edge during his ERA, but put him in the 80's when scouting was routine and he no longer has that intimidating quality. I would say Hakeem was quicker off his feet in the 80's, as he routinely blocked shots at the peak of their trajectory. Russell was the smarter player and a better rebounder. Hakeem was easily the better offensive player and whoever the better defender is, there isn't a great discrepancy. Overall, looking at competition, quality of play, offensive ability, defense... I don't see how you give the nod to Russell. But hey, if Dr. Jack Ramsey says it, it must be true.
It's hard to compare centers from different eras...but I think Hakeem win's out over Shaq. he outdueled him, and did more with less. Hakeem beat ever center of his time. Shaq, Ewing, Robinson, and even a Kareem who admitingly was on the down end of his career. I mean, Hakeem once blocked the sky-hook! When you look at Hakeem's offense, he redefined the game with his foot work. His patented turn-around jumper is now so common. More by small forwards and guards...but that's a demonstration of how good he was. He had great defense - all-time block leader, always top ten in steals...the most steals of any center ever. A great rebounder, and didn't have any real holes to his game. Think about it....Russel wasn't an offensive center, Wilt wasn't know for his defense, Shaq couldn't shoot free-throws and never was a great defensive center. So that's my case for Hakeem being the greatest...but you can make a case for the others too...so it's all subjective at the end of the day....
