...that's sort of by default though. I know he had his fair share of clutch shots, but I'm not sure others didn't either. I don't recall too many centers having Robert Horry-like or Jerry West reputations, and honestly haven't seen enough old Jabbar/Alcindor, Chamerlain, etc. to say what they were like as clutch shooters. You will get a huge argument from Russell partisans on this issue.
This seems like a sensible and nice debate for a change.... Clyde at this point really isn't comparable to what Kobe and Wade did for him in those championships. The team might not be a playoff team without Hakeem, but the Lakers, Magic, Heat probably are. The Lakers took a year and the Heat is just speculation, but the Magic made it easily without Shaq. The best argument I have is this. An all-time great performs best in the clutch. Put Shaq in Hakeem's '93-'94 team and who will take those shots when the game's close at the end? I certainly won't hold my breath AS hard if they imploy the "Hack-a Hakeem" I don't like how Shaq is a liability to hold on to a lead late in games, making his necessity of a sidekick much more than that is of Hakeem. Having Clyde was great and was the last ingredient that got us the second championship, but Hakeem was the force that made it happen. I certainly can't say that for Shaq's last championship. That last ring really wasn't part of the debate in championship comparisons, in my honest opinion. Nothing to say, GREAT point! Another great point. Actually, Shaq held his own for the most part during those playoffs, but it's Hakeem's defense that is the difference. The way he intimidates the opposition from challenging him is different from Shaq. With Shaq, you dont' want to get hit, but with Hakeem, you know he's always there with a good chance to start a fastbreak with one of his blocks that almost always goes to a teammate. That defense, and his movement is what puts him over Shaq in my opinion. He does this day in and day out against the likes of Daugherty, Ewing, Robinson, Kareem (late in Kareem's career), Eaton, Mutumbo, etc. I know that's a tiring argument, but Hakeem did really play against the best when the centers were at their best. Sorry, I had to disagree here. Olajuwon was great early. His play changed where Shaq's stayed the same. Shaq's peak might be in his 4th to 8th year, and has declined pretty fast. Those championship years was it for Shaq. Anything before that was his rise and these past 3 years is just a shade of who he was. Hakeem peaked late, but he has maintained the high level of pla y much longer than Shaq. In fact, his peak years is around where Shaq's fading years are.
Well as far as productivity goes, there is a pretty big difference (both aggregate and /min) Shaq from 22-30 to Hakeem - and that doesn't factor that Shaq's younger years were spent in a slower paced era. I also am factoring in here the fact that Shaq put up 10 26+ ppg seasons to Hakeem's 4. I sort of remember Hakeem's career as sstarting off with a bang and then going into a plateau prior to the 92-96 peak. Of course that doesn't take into account defense; some of Hakeem's greatest defensive years were in the 86-92 "lost years" when we were playing Point Guard roulette; particularly 89-91 when he was an absolute terror on the boards, stealing & blocking shots.
Shaq's stats are overall better than Hakeem's. And he's won more champhionships. On the other hand, Hakeem definitely had the best all around season of the two, stat-wise (Hakeem's 1990 season was his best stat-wise, imo). Also, Shaq just finished his 14th season. Hakeem's 14th season was the one where he truly started to decline. Shaq held up a little better - and won a championship (though you can thank D. Wade for that) - in his 14th season, but also has dropped under 10 rpg, almost dropped under 20 ppg. It'll be interesting to see how Shaq ends his career. Will his numbers start to drop significantly like Hakeem's eventually did? If so, I think you could justifiably make the argument for them to be pretty equal at 3's 4.5 - Shaq the more dominant offensive force, Hakeem the more dominant defensive force. If Shaq can stay around 20/10 or 19/9 for another 3 or 4 seasons though, and Miami continues to at least contend throughout that period, than I think Shaq becomes the clear #4.
You have to take into account defense. Every blocked shot is a potential 2 points saved. Every intimidation is a disruption of the offense and another potential 2 or even 3 points saved. Steals same thing. Defensive boards same thing. As mentioned above, I think Hakeem's best all around season was probably in that time frame. This was when he still had that Amare Stoudamire type pop to his game that just blew you away, but was also slowly refining it. Also, a lot of people like to think Hakeem was an incapable passer before the Championship years because that is where he truly blossomed in that era, but he wasn't. He still created decently for other players considering his position. His 2.9 apg in 1990 would have put him 2nd in the league this year behind only Brad Miller for centers. Shaq's been a good passer, too, though.
1. Wilt 2. Kareem 3. Russell 4-6. Hakeem, Moses, Shaq (in no particular order) so Hakeem is top 6 at worst, maybe as high as #4.
It's fine that we're having this discussion, but I'm surprised this is even a question on our board(A Rockets board). I regularly see threads at general NBA forums asking if Hakeem is the greatest center ever, one of the top 5 players ever, etc... IMO, top 5 centers isn't even to be debated, especially here.
Is there any question? There has never been a more complete center in the history of the game. No center had more offensive variety than Hakeem. He could drill a jump shot from 20, spin, take you baseline, fadeaway, jump hooks, anything he wanted. Hakeem never needed great position, sure it helped and it was an automatic two when he got the ball in good position, but if he got the ball out of his comfort zone he still found a way to score. We all know his defensive capabilities. But let me remind you, that this 7ft center is 7th all time in steals. 7th, no player was as complete on both ends of the floor. For all of you who place Shaq ahead of Hakeem, bear in mind he never once made the all defensive first team, never once led the league in blocks or in rebounds. His offensive variety and ability, compared to Hakeem is nothing. Hakeem dominated when it was a big mans league, He faced prime centers like Ewing and Robinson, living legends like Jabbar, Parish and Malone, and young guns like Mutombo, Shaq and Mourning, even the second tier centers like kevin Willis and the often injured Brad Daugherty would be All-Stars in todays league. While we will never see alot of these match ups with these players in their peak years, it just goes to show the quality of centers that were in the league when Hakeem played. Shaq, through no fault of his own, has not played against top quality centers throughout his career, but this doesn't excuse him for constantly being out of shape and lacking the passion to dominate the way Hakeem did. Hakeem had no weaknesses, he was not a late game liability, if you sent him to the line, he was knocking down those free throws. This is because he never let up, never stopped improving his game. While others became satisfied, he became hungrier, no center had more passion than the Dream. While many argue that Russell played in an era where blocked shots were not a statistic, i agree that it is a shame that it happened. But you must also take into account what a player of Hakeems superior athletic ability and instinct could have accomplished in that same era. To suggest he isn't a top 5 center is an insult, book him as the greatest from my persepctive, and top 5 as an unwilling compromise if need be.
Just because Russell was a revolutionary defensive player doesn't lock him in a top 3 tier with Wilt and Kareem. Russell was a great team defender but never averaged more than 18 ppg in a season and played with something like 8 HOF's throughout his career. The fact that he was the only elite big man who could compete with Wilt on a team like Boston only encouraged his faulty legacy to writers. Defense as a whole was miserable back in the 60's and 70's, another reason Russell stood out. You also have to consider the poor quality of "big" men in the league. Athleticism and size were scarce. I'm embarassed sometimes watching game tape on ESPN classic how easily Wilt could score. On some occassions Philadelphia would lob the ball to him play after play and no one was tall enough to deflect it. Wilt was born too early, the 80's and 90's were the place for world class athletes. My rankings are something like this: Tier 1: Kareem Hakeem Wilt Tier 2: Shaq Russell I put Shaq in tier 2 because a one-dimensional player like him needs a great perimeter player to succeed. You put him on an average team and they will NOT become great, something Hakeem could do. With the exception of Hakeem, none of these players did anything without a GREAT supporting cast.
i think i might be the only one who preferred the shaquille oneal that played in the magic jerseys than the later oneals. what he lacked in passing skills he made up with ferocity. he attacked the basket and the defender, and as hard to believe how well he moved for his size when he was playing with kobe and phil, he was even more unbelievable when he was fit and lean with penny in orlando. amare stoudamire before his injury used to remind me of shaq, except shaq had more muscles and strength. i really believe that after jordan left the game, as well as all the players his batch aged and started their decline, the game really went downhill. 2000+ lakers were a great team, but they didnt have anyone who could really beat them except for one team or two. imagine chicago bulls during their first 3peat, probably one of the best teams all time, had a losing record against hakeem and his rockets. absolutely no way that arguably the best player ever, with scottie pippen by his side, have a losing record against a one superstar team, and that superstar isnt even a top 5 in his position. my top 5 Cs. 1. hakeem 2. wilt 3. kareem 4. shaq 5. russell
What makes Hakeem top 5 center is that he played at a time where there were other great centers. But not only did he compete against Robinson, Ewing, and a young Shaq...he dominated them. Outside of Russell, Wilt had not competition (and vice verca). But Olajuwon not only put up great numbers he also brought his A game when playing in big games against other big centers.
For a few seasons Hakeem was right up there with the best, but if I rank the NBA's greatest centers I can't say he was as good overall as Wilt, Kareem, and Russell. Wilt has him in offense and rebounding (probably even defense), Russell in defense and rebounding, and Kareem was a much better offensive player while not being that far behind him defensively. Hakeem vs Shaq, over their careers, is dominant defense and great offense vs dominant offense and good defense. I'll take Hakeem here, and Hakeem over Moses too. 1. Wilt - Complete package. 2. Russell - Defense, rebounding, and probably the smartest basketball player ever. 3. Kareem - Next best all around. 4. Hakeem - Peak just wasn't long enough. 5. Shaq - Wilt minus the defense and rebounding.
I'm not doubting anyone of these guys greatness. I don't think you can put someone you can't have in the game in clutch situations over a complete package. That automatically bumps Shaq down. You simply can't say he was higher than any of these other guys because of stats when he can't even be trusted to be IN the game at the end. That's just silly. Wilt, Kareem, Russell and Shaq were consistently were surrounded by other great players of a caliber Dream never came close to having around him. Wilt, Kareem, and Dream were all complete packages. None of those players ever won a ring without another all-star on the team except Dream. Wilt, like Shaq, was physically far superior to his competition. While I don't think you can hold that against them you certainly need to evaluate how heavy to weigh stats vs these other centers. My list has Dream, Kareem, and Wilt as the top 3 (in no particular order). Russell is clearly #4. #5 could be quite a few of the rest.
I don't have much to add to this debate that hasn't been said already. Hakeem is easily among the top 5 centers of all time and probably the top 3. I can see how people looking at stats could put Shaq above Dream but if you consider how versatile Dream was and who he was playing against he is easily better than Shaq. Shaq is certainly a great center but is sort of like George Mikan and played in a time when his sheer physicality and lack of other great bigmen allowed him to dominate.
through the same point in their careers, their rebounds are virtually identical. it's hakeem's final 3 seasons that drag him from the 12.0 shaq is at now to the 11.1 final average. i wrote a huge post on hornfans (of all places) on hakeem and shaq. as best as i can tell, it's too close to call. shaq wins by a few points, hakeem by almost a block and steal per game, shaq on fg% and general offensive unstoppability, hakeem on finishing games, hakeem on having 2 titles to shaq's 3 (not counting this last one) while having significantly worse supporting casts. the playoff numbers are also very close with hakeem hardly to blame for his teams not advancing further. i'll see if i can find the post. having said hakeem and shaq are basically tied, the tough thing is to find where they belong in the top 5. AFAIC, they are ahead of russell and i won't even listen to a counterargument. their offensive games, and thus their abilities to be singular stars on title games in today's era, are just too far ahead. and it's very hard to argue hakeem isn't at least russell's equal on defense, which leaves offense and that's no contest. as far as wilt and kareem, that's tougher. kareem won a lot of mvp's (5 of 6 i think) before pairing with magic, but only 1 of 6 titles. in a shallower league as in the 70s, was he really that dominant then? then he got paired with a top 5 all time player in magic and won 5 more titles. having 6 of each is pretty insane though. wilt is wilt, and we just went through all that. maybe wilt is #1 and kareem #2 with shaq and hakeem tied at #3. maybe kareem drops below them. maybe kareem stays ahead and wilt drops below. maybe hakeem and shaq are tied for #1. if i honestly thought 1 was definitely better than hakeem, i would say so, as i really like talking basketball history and being objective about it, but i can't do it. i also can't say hakeem is definitely #1, as the awards and titles hurt him. but if he had a kobe or wade, or a magic and worthy or robertson, or a roster of hall of famers, or west and baylor, maybe he would be up there, too. so to me it's a 4 way tie at the top and it'll come down to personal preferences for who you put 1, 2, 3, or 4.
