After watching Francis improve and the performance in todays games, I'd have to say he's passed up Kobe in overall team value. Certainly they are both great players and I have been very impressed with Kobe's improvement this year. He seems to have matured a lot and his one-on-one defense and offense are better than ever. However, Francis seems to be a much better team player and equally as skilled at his position. It's not just that he's a point guard and gets more assists and passes. He also gets genuinly exicted when his teammates make great plays. He always seems to say the right things about them off the court too. I also think Francis is more competitive than Kobe and almost any other player I've watched since Jordon. Maybe it's just me, but he does a great job of showing intensity and charisma at the same time. I imagine the TV networks will have him on more often after today.
The issue of who's more valuable is debatable (though most would favour Kobe right now). But I think your point of Francis' charisma and enthusiasm has more to do with his mentality and character than his valuability to the team. Kobe just doesn't show his emotions, much like Hakeem. Dream has always been sober, quiet, modest and let his play do the talking. That may have reduced his marketing potential, but not his worth to the team. Azim da Dream ------------------ No guts, no glory, no brain, same story.
Favorite image of the game... Watching Francis fight Shaq for that rebound. The kid is fearless! Think Kobe would fight for a rebound like that? Great win by the Rocks! [This message has been edited by mc mark (edited January 31, 2000).]
In my opinion, not that you asked for it, Francis is more valuable to the ROCKETS than Kobe would be. We had Pippen. I think Pip, as much as I hate to say it, is a more complete player than Kobe. The Rockets have lacked in the PG position for ions. You get Kobe, and un-trade the Francis thing, you are right back to last year with Maloney or Price running the show. Those guys were decent contributors, but not the instinctive, explosive athlete that Stevie is. Stevie is my pick for the Rocks. ------------------ HOOP-T
Scottie never put up the sort of #'s that Kobe is already doing... and he's only 21. Furthermore, Kobe plays with Shaq, a virtual black hole for basketballs. I don't think that Kobe is the next "jordan," but I do feel like he can be one of the top 5 players in the league... something Pippen never was, imo.
Gents, not to argue, I see your point and it is noted. True, head to head Scottie took a beating against Kobe until the first round of the playoffs when Pip had 37 and filled the stat sheet. But Kobe, just this year and part of last, has developed a consistent shot from the perimeter. Scottie has always had a good jumper. I said Scottie is a more complete player. If you look at his rebounding, assists, defense, passing ability, and scoring....Scottie fills the stat sheet in more areas. Kobe inflates it in one, points per game. Sure, he may have some good rebounding nights here or there. We may never see the Scottie of old again if he stays with Portland. But he still has it. It is hard for me to say too, being that I am anti-Pippen these days.
Kobe is the best 2 guard in the league at the age of 21. As Dave D'Alessandro stated in his midseason awards, I would count on Kobe getting the tough rebound more so than any other guard in the league. By the time he gets done in this league, he'll no doubt be a much better player than Scottie Pippen ever was.
What are kobe's rebounding stats ? Im sure hes not that far behind scottie. He has a pippen type body, not as ripped, but he has pretty long arms. Is he the best 2 in the league ? i dont know, eddie jones has always been a favorite of mine, but kobe may be better. Is vince carter a 3 ? I think he could play the two spot well also. ------------------ "Don't they get cable in Canada ?" Keith olbermann, after watching hakeem block terry catledge's shot 5 times.
hoop-t, i gotta disagree with you, i think kobe and scottie are worlds apart. Kobe basically owned Scottie last year. Kobe is quicker, a better shooter, more athletic, and not that far behind in defense and ball-handling. im not biased against scottie, but if given a choice between he or kobe, i take kobe in a heartbeat. ------------------ "Don't they get cable in Canada ?" Keith olbermann, after watching hakeem block terry catledge's shot 5 times.
Ok, check out the stats. Francis has almost as many rebounds and points per game as Kobe and is way ahead in assists. You also have to figure that Francis has improved a whole lot in the past month. He has really cut down the turnovers and increased his points, assists, and rebounds significantly. 1999-2000 S T A T I S T I C S REBOUNDS G GS MPG FGM-A FG% 3PM-A 3P% FTM-A FT% OFF DEF TOT APG STL BLK TO PF PTS PPG Kobe 29 25 38.1 243-533 .456 20-60 .333 154-181 .851 1.3 4.8 6.2 3.8 44 26 82 110 660 22.8 Stevie 41 41 35.6 267-604 .442 46-151 .305 174-225 .773 2.3 3.0 5.2 7.1 59 13 168 122 754 18.4 [This message has been edited by Air Francis (edited February 01, 2000).]
How did Stevie get thrown into the mix here? How did we get on the subject of who is the best two guard? Anyway, I agree, Eddie Jones is one hell of a two guard.....BUT WHAT ABOUT MITCH RICHMOND?
Mitch Richmond is an awesome player, but injuries have really reduced his productivity. 2-3 years ago he arguably was the best 2-guard after Jordan. As for best SG right now, Kobe and Eddie are both up there. But don't forget guys like Ray Allen, Allan Houston, Steve Smith, Reggie Miller and of course Allen Iverson (I still have trouble including him as a SG) Out of all those guys, if I were the GM of a team who needed a SG and am looking to win a championship, I would pick Eddie Jones. Not necessarily the best, but he gets the job done. Azim da Dream ------------------ No guts, no glory, no brain, same story.
Two or three years ago, Richmond was the 3rd best 2-guard, after Clyde Drexler I think that Bryant has to be the best 2-guard because of his versatility. He can handle the ball nearly as well as a point, but can rebound almost as well as some small forwards. He has the shot that the position required, but can drive much better than some of the more static 2's. Besides, he's the youngest, so probably has the longest career ahead of him.
Point taken. Mitch has been hampered by some injuries. But he is still a solid performer and still a top five 2 in my opinion. Eddie Jones may be the best all around 2. Kobe is not far behind, but I think Eddie is a bit better defensively. Rebounding may be too close to call.
Disagree again hoop-t =). mitch was top 5, 2 years ago, but is he even starting now ? i think rip hamilton starts in DC. Mitch has never been the do it all type of guard, just a real scorer. A top 5 from the great one ? 1. eddie jones 2. kobe bryant 3. allan houston 4. iverson 5. Ray allen whats sad is that some of these guys are much better then steve smith or gugliota, and they are on the dream team =( ------------------ "Don't they get cable in Canada ?" Keith olbermann, after watching hakeem block terry catledge's shot 5 times.
You mean, people look at things other than scoring???? Man, I am just behind the times I guess!!!! The almight MJ once said Richmond was the toughest player he ever had to guard.
true. hes prolly right also. But didnt clyde light up MJ they last time they played ? seriously, Clyde was a physical wonder. MJ also said that Jones is the best defender and that dream was a sf in a centers body =). Oh back to the topic, i taker francis over kobe, no slight to kobe. ------------------ "Don't they get cable in Canada ?" Keith olbermann, after watching hakeem block terry catledge's shot 5 times.
I like Clyde a lot and you could argue he was the second best 2 guard in the late 80's and on, but MJ owned his jock. Dumars, Richmond, Starks and even Maxwell fared much better against MJ than Clyde on both sides of the court. The best 2 guard right now is Iverson (slightly). Kobe, Jones, Houston, Allen and Finley are pretty close in all-around play though (of these guys I'd probably leave Houston out of the top 5). Mitch used to a great all-around player (close call between him and Clyde), but he isn't in the top 5 any more, and perhaps not in the top 10 either.
When arguing the best 2 guards right now, I think it's pretty clear that Eddie Jones isn't the best. If I had to rate them, Kobe would be 1, Iverson 2, Allen 3, Houston 4, and Jones 5. Actually I'd put Sprewell as 5 when he plays the 2. Just comparing Jones and Bryant, Bryant is the much better rebounder. Jones is having his best rebounding year this year with 4.8 rpg. Bryant is over 6 this year. Bryant is a better shooter, passer, scorer, rebounder, and playoff performer. Jones does have a slight defensive edge in guarding the 2's. But Kobe is a much more versatile defender in his ability to guard the 1, 2, and 3's. Jones has disappeared from every big playoff game that I can remember. I have a hard time ranking any player at the top of his class when he has never really showed up when it counts. If Bryant played full time at Small Forward, he would probably average around 8 to 9 boards a game. That was pretty much what he did average when he has started at the 3. If you want to factor in age, Jones is 28 and Bryant is 21. Richmond and Miller are no longer at the top of their position. The physical talents have really declined and it shows in their stats and shooting percentages. Iverson, Allen, and Houston have all produced big numbers in the playoffs with several clutch shots. Houston won the 1st round series with last second shot. Allen forced overtime with a 3 pointer. Iverson carried his team into the 2nd round.
If you all are talking purely talent and not attitude than Rider and Spreewell would be in the top five. Spree might play 3 in NY but he probably is a natural 2. Iverson Spreewell Carter Eddie Kobe Rider Mobley (he he he)
