Said perfectly. Off the top of my head (no way this list is repping the top 10 ever, just naming 10 players better than Dirk): Hakeem Bird Magic Russell Abdul-Jabbar Jordan Duncan Chamberlain Kobe Shaq All better than Dirk, so already out of the top 10. There are even a few better than Dirk without a title, 3 obvious ones: Barkley Malone Stockton I mean, Dirk is special on how unique a talent he is. I can see a feasible top 30 argument, but anything more than that would require multiple titles.
How about something Easier? Is Dirk the GREATEST DALLAS MARVERICK OF ALL TIME? Jason Kidd comes to mind as someone to contend with him but .. some of jason's best years were not with the MAVs and . .. so I have to ask . .do they count? Rocket River
Moses has a title and 3 MVPs. (If you mean that Jazz guy, I believe he is referred to on this board as "Karla.")
Look up the stats on Hill's first 6 years. Completely blows away that of LBJ. Hill probably was a better player than JKidd but I do not think that anybody here feels that he had a better career than Kidd. If LBJ were to get injured, his career could easily end up like that of Hill (6 years, 8 years, not that huge of a difference in a league which you see great players playing 15-20 years). Nobody is saying Kidd is a better player than LBJ. What people are saying is that Kidd had a better career than LBJ because Kidd has withstood the test of time. Yes Kidd has 0 MVPs but he did get robbed at least once (his first year in NJ FOR SURE). The guy has been a major reason (possibly the only reason) for the turnaround of three franchises (Dallas, PHX, NJ). Kidd may not have as many All-Defensive/All-NBA selections but there is no denying that Kidd has been elite (in his prime, the best) at his position for both of those categories over a span of many years. So what if Kidd lost in the finals twice as the lead dog? Lebron lost twice in the finals and the supporting cast he had his second run was far far far superior to anything Kidd had and LBJ faced a team not as tough as the two teams which Kidd faced.
Funny Steve Francis Averages 20, 6, 6, the whole time he was with the rockets and people hated him. Rocket River
But seriously. Francis was an idiot. Basketball IQ in the negatives. That was truly a dark age for Rockets basketball. Every time I hear the name Francis or Moochie Norris, a shotclock buzzer goes off in my head. All I remember were the boneheaded turnovers, the horrible shot selection, the inability to find a 7'5" guy. OMG. He was as Charles Barkley would say, TURRRRRRRIIBBBBLE
lebron had that in his ROOKIE year (when he wasn't an all-star nor a top 20 player). then he went to 26, 6, 6 every year after that. i'm sure if francis averaged 26, 6, 6, he would have retired a rocket. EDIT: wrong, francis only averaged in 2 of his 5 years as a rocket. and he was a very inefficient player outside of a few years as he never shot 45% just one year grant hill's #s are NOWHERE CLOSE to lebron's numbers, even in his best year in 99-00 when he put up 26, 6, 5. like i said, lebron put up 27, 7, 7 in his SECOND year. did you even watch grant hill? lebron won 2 MVPs in his 8 years; 7 all-nba 1st teams teams (grant hill had ONE), been to the finals twice (grant hill never got past the first round)... i don't know why you are arguing by bringing up grant hill, it's a terrible argument. no, lebron has a better career than kidd already. 8 years in the L, 7 years as a top 5-7 player, and 4 years as a top 2 player. he basically has been a superstar EVERY year in the L. you have to understand jkidd has not been a top dog since 2008; he's been a role player (at best as a 3rd/4th best option the last 3 years)-and in 08, he put up 10/10 on 40%fg. kidd's last dominant season was in 03-04 when he put up 15 and 9, and he shot 38% that season (and i'm being nice b/c he shot 38% that year), but he still had a huge impact and was a true star/leader. so he's been past his prime for about 5 years now. he's still producing, but not at the superstar level. so in kidd's career, he has about 6-7 years of superstar play. lebron's been a true superstar for 7 of his 8 years, and more individual accolades to show for them. so no, lebron has had the better career.
It's amazing how a guy can go from being called a choker in the clutch, a non-leader, or a wuss all-star to being considered an all-time great after one season. Makes no sense. I'm not saying Dirk is any of those things, but many fans are either easily influenced or fools. BTW, Dirk being top-10? Absolutely not. He could probably be one of the 3 or 4 best shooters ever, though. That'd be an interesting question.
it's understandable though; winning cures all and sports are a "what have you done for me lately" kind of thing. also, dirk has had great regular seasons and some great playoff runs (outside of some choke jobs). if he played out his career without a ring, he would most likely still be considered a great player ala a patrick ewing. and usually, you have to have some playoff struggles before you pull through (magic johnson in 84, kobe bryant/shaq were swept like 2-3 straight years before breaking through with phil jackson, now the case with lebron...). and dirk finally did it this year. winning as the top dog will elevate your status, as it should for dirk. he's a top 35-40 player as of right now, and will continue to rise to around top 25-30 player when he retires.
Easily top 30 Maybe top 20 Certainly not top 10 Outside of his hometown nutswingers, i still don't think hes getting enough credit. Don't give me this crap about how great his supporting cast is. He had good players around him, not the dream team. Having said that, top 10 is laughable. 1.Michael Jordan 2.Kareem Abdul Jabbar 3.Bill Russell 4.Wilt Chamberlain 5.Magic Johnson 6.Larry Bird 7.Oscar Robertson 8.Hakeem Olajuwon 9.Tim Duncan 10.Shaquille O'Neal 11.Kobe Bryant 12.Jerry West These 12 are undeniably better than Dirk, at 13 he starts to get in the discussion, probably closer to 20 IMO.
Wow did you fail every grammar class you took? Feel like I am arguing with a child. Kidd had 6-7 years of superstar play? The guy has been in the league for 17 years and considered to be an elite PG for most of them (at least most which I can remember). Every single season of his career, he has been in the top 10 in assists (including 5 assist titles), he has always throughout his career been considered to be one of the best defensive players at the PG position and one of the greatest rebounders at the PG position. His first year in Dallas, they went from a 13 win team to a 36 win team. His first full season Phoenix, they went from a 40 win team to a 56 win team. And his first full season in NJ, they went from a bottom feeder to the finals. The numbers do not do his career justice imo, he was an outstanding player (it isn't an embarrassment to LeBron for me to say that Kidd has had a better career even if I do not consider Kidd to be a top 30 player of all time, just like I do not consider your lord and savior to be...YET). As far as Hill goes, pretty sure he had a couple of 20/9/7 seasons including one 20/10/7 season in there. He was a superstar, considered to be one of the best all-around players and looked like a sure-fire hall of famer before the injuries which made him a decent role player. Are you telling me that if LeBron was to get injured, lose most of his athleticism and become nothing more than a solid role player over the next 5-10 years that his career would still be considered great and would be considered to be better than JKidd? Do you seriously believe that?
or you fail to watch basketball. did grant hill win a couple of MVPs before he got injured? did he get past the first round? why are you still arguing with grant hill? for god sakes lebron got to the finals in his 3rd year and put up 31, 7, 7. you really do not know basketball when you claim grant hill's #s "blow" lebron's out of the water. that was one of the most ludicrous statements of all time made on this board. i shouldn't even respond to you after that. and yet you still haven't made an argument for why jkidd has had a better career.
