http://www.82games.com/0506/playoffs/0506MIA.HTM http://www.82games.com/0506/playoffs/playoffs.htm You can see the some larger patterns above. They used to have the ratings seperated by the finals (can no longer find it at that level). The Wade and Zo combination (Shaq out) absolutely put the Heat in position to win that series, Mia was not functioning efficiently as a team with Shaq in there versus Dallas (though Shaq was effective on other series, but never to Wade's level). Mia was so effective then versus Dallas because Zo made a better defensive matchup and more importantly, they were decisive in running everything through Wade and not the center spot. Or if you want just look at the cumulative box.http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/teams/stats?team=mia&seasonYear=2006&season=3&split=6 You have to dig really deep to find a finals winner with such an unbalanced box where one guy was so central. Dallas really was a lot better in roster spots 3-8, and spot 2 (Shaq) didn't play well. That said Zo picked up a lot of slack and played great. Still Wade clearly overcame a much superior team if you took the two best players off (Wade & Dirk)--certainly the most impressive guard performance in the playoffs since Jordan.
1) Your still not proving that the Heat played better without Shaq and with Zo, raw +/- figures are never going to prove that, or do you truly believe the Wizards and Nuggets played better with Arenas and Melo off the court. Or let me explain it in a term where it hits home, according to raw data the Rockets were a better team when Yao was off the court exactly 7.1 pts better on a per/48 minute scale. http://www.82games.com/04HOU22D.HTM Im not saying +/- figures arent usefull but when anomolies such as this occur the answer always lies in the modified data. Dont ask me how to get them, but I know coaches and GM's alike have them. The rest of your post is repetitive, what exactly are you trying to prove? That Wades playoff run last year makes him a better player than Kobe?
One thing that I've been hearing from analysts and fans all the time is that Kobe is a better finisher and was more athletic than Jordan. This is one of the dumbest comments I've EVER heard. Kobe is athletic and is an incredible dunker but Jordan was more athletic. If you're comparing Kobe's athleticism to Jordan's during the 98 season then I'd say Kobe was more athletic, but Jordan during the late 80's and early 90's was MUCH MUCH more athletic than Kobe has ever been. That's not a knock on Kobe, he's got amazing athletic gifts, but Jordan was just simply put more athletic and a better finisher. Anyone who doesn't think so either forgot how athletic Jordan was 20 years ago, or simply didn't see Jordan play at that time.
I am not sure what you are looking at, Yao has been the most effective Rocket this year. http://www.82games.com/0607/0607HOU.HTM Now looking back at the 04 playoffs, Yes it looks the best floor combination was not with Yao. This series was also against Dallas, where like with Mia last year, the teams were better off with Zo or Deke in there for defense and attacking Dallas from the wing (Tmac, Wade) versus trying to force it to Yao/Shaq. http://www.82games.com/playoffs/045PHOU.HTM 1st of all, of course a set of stats are not going to prove anything. But they are going to show trends. Mia in my own eyes did tons better when they just forgoed trying to pound it in to Shaq and instead set up the whole offense through Wade. This was also very parallel to what it looks like for us versus Dallas 2 years ago. Now I am not saying it is because Zo is better than Shaq, or Deke is better than Yao (though in both cases you could argue the defense was better for matching up with Dallas with thse subs)--IMO the big reason was because their fundamental offensive strategy changed, and attacking Dallas from the outside in rather than the inside out was much more effective. Having players of Wade and Tmac capability made this possible to break down Dallas D rather than play to its strength, though Tmac eventually wore down. Now is Wade a better player than Kobe? Tough question. What I do know is Wade has been better able to carry a team deep in the playoffs on his back and Kobe (and Tmac) has not. He also broke down a Detroit defense (remember the injury to Wade probably kept Mia from knocking Det out 2 years ago) that made Kobe relatively ineffective. I don't remember Det struggling as much to find a primary man defender for Kobe, though Wade befuddled them and dispirited them whatever they tried. In truth I don't think Wade is a more physically talented player than Kobe. I don't think he would beat Kobe in 1 on 1 either, nor is Wade better than Kobe in an All-Star game. But as a team basketball player capable of leading his team deep in the playoffs and getting all his teamates behind him, yes I think he has a major nod. Wade is more relentless in attacking the basket, seems more conscious of where his teammates need to be to be effective, and has more of his teammates confidence--I think this makes him a better basketball player if playoff winning is your goal. Now I think Jordan in his prime had all the components of Wade and Kobe, and then probably some.
This year being the opperative word but look at the link I provided and youll have your answer. Despite what raw +/- numbers suggest youll have a hard time convincing anyone Yao had a negative influence on the Rockets 50 win season. So you actually believe we were better off without Yao in the middle? In ANY series? Interesting point but I wont be convinced untill you have the modified data that shows the strength of the teams opposition. In certain stages of the games having Zo was vital but you can easily say if you switched Zo and Shaq in the rotation the numbers could reveal that the heat played better with Shaq and without Zo. The trends the raw figures show are somewhat relavent in the regular season, but in 6 game series the sample size is too small to take too seriously. Again this falls back to the team being healthy thing, and honestly you cant judge Kobes playoff legacy untill he has a team around him. Its what Ive always said about Tmac, this is truly the year we see if he can lead a team, before this year hes carried his teams but he always lost out to a better team. While Wade didnt have the Shaq of old he did have plenty of weapons around him. Thats a safe assumption considering hes actually proven it, but Ill wait untill Kobe has a team around him to see if Wade is as good as you say. But as of now Kobes 3 rings give me plenty of reason for believing in him. Yea but the guy won 6 rings, proving hes done what Wade has done and then some. And no other player on MJ's team commanded the type of doubles Shaq still receives.
Oh course Kobe is better. He has a bad team. Jordan had a All Star team Rodman, Pippen, Kukoc. Jordan was a ball hog like Kobe is now, but Kobe gives a lot of assits per game. Jordan was better on defensive. But Kobe is better.
Actually man, I was watching BBall well before the Jordan Era. I started Watching Ball when Moses was the Man for the Rockets. So your credibility for your counter has been lost. I watched Jordan from His days at UNC, being that I am a UNC fan. I watched him get drafted, I watched him Light up Bird and C's for 63. I watched him get pummeled by the Pistons in the Playoffs. I have seen about as much of Jordan then anyone who wasnt a Bulls fan. Jordan was a great scorer, But he always had the ball, with ONE defender to beat initially. Kobe gets 80 while being followed by two, sometimes three defenders. Sorry, Kobe has the better offensive ability, Has the better Range, just as deadly a turnaround mid range jumper, and is almost as good a defender. Kobe is the More skilled.
Umm No im not, Im not blinded by the "good ol days when I was first watching bball" blues that tends to overtake subjectiveness. And NO one was double teaming Jordan those day, much less triple teaming. You didnt make a good argument here. Obviously you dont watch much of what Kobe does. Kobe doesnt run from anything. He usually starts the offense, and can still amongst all the defenders get off. I dont know to say if you really believe that Kobe doesnt live in more double teaming then Jordan saw. I guess the point is moot in your mind. Roger that, being that I dislike Kobe. The only Homerism going on is your lack of subjectiveness. Slasher Yes. Defender probably not, pound for pound....sorry yes, Outside threat yes, pure scorer yes. You claim that this is a weaker era, but Jordan got points in an era when point scoring was probably 20 percent higher then it is now. This is purely attributed to the more athletic players, and much tougher Defenses. But the man can put up 80 points while being legally triple teamed, is just nuts.[/QUOTE] Watch the game again, there was no triple team, rarely did they double. Even Jalen admitted he was watching the whole time. [/QUOTE] No way does Jordan pull this off. If your talking purely on a talent level, Kobe is better then Jordan. As for the better team player...of course thats Jordan.[/QUOTE] Im talking about as a better basketball player, thats MJ [/QUOTE] As for the Wade Arguement. Umm, why does Kobe get a pass for winning with Shaq, whilst Wade doesnt? [/QUOTE] Im sorry I dont know if this argument is geared towards me but Ill answer it anyway, Shaq then wasnt Shaq now, the mere fact that you asked this question speaks volumes about your basketball IQ. [/QUOTE] The Heat had about the same record as the Lakers while Shaq was out. And Id say that the Heat still had better talent. The Wade led Heat look less then average in the weak Eastern Conference. Nope, not buying the Wade argument. [/QUOTE] Thats alil true but you have to remember that when Shaq was out, someone was either hurt, fat, or the coach was missing. Either way Wade isnt on MJ's level either. [/QUOTE]I think 99 percent of the GMs if starting a team would pick Kobe over Wade. Wade has NO where near Kobe's Range, or defensive abilities.[/QUOTE] I would take Kobe but only by a nuthair, now ask those same GM's who they would build a franchise around and Lebron is the choice.[/QUOTE] You saw what coming? You have confused me. Once again incase you didnt read it correctly, I am NOT a Kobe fan. I am saying Kobe is the better skill set, complete package as a player then Jordan was. Im sorry you feel differently, maybe its your "homerism", or your blind love for the "good ol days"
If you really watched that long and still say Kobe is better defender etc, then you must be watching games asleep. We are seeing different things then. Jordan had all the ability to score a lot more 50+ games, he was just a better teammates on the court, not taking all the shots unless he had to, thus he was way more efficient and his teammates looked better than they actually were.
Some people are really overestimating the influence Zone Defense can have on a game. The first year the NBA used Zone Defense was the 01-02 season. It was supposed to have an incredible effect on the game, but there really was no effect at all. Stats that $hit on The Theory that Zone Defense makes it harder to Score- 2000-2001: 94.8 PPG, .443 FG%, .354 3P% 2001-2002: 95.5 PPG, .445 FG%, .354 3P% 01-02 was the first year ZONE D was allowed in the league, yet the stats from the previous year are almost exactly the same. So Zone D really hasn't had that much of an impact. If MJ could score 30+ in the 90's, he could score 30+ now.
The Pistons did not swarm Kobe. Prince was just in his grill with that huge wingspan. One of the main gripes from that Finals was that the Pistons were going 1-1 on Shaq (who was putting up good numbers), yet the dude struggling with his shot was the one shooting the most (Kobe) and not coming off the rock.
Do you have any clips that show Kobe getting hounded by 2-3 defenders all game long? I have watched plenty of highlights of Kobe from the past two seasons and I don't see him get that kind of attention. Like Mike, I usually see him drive into a double, etc. Kobe can be more skilled all he wants. Until he learns how to be more efficient and a better decision maker like MJ then I will take MJ all day long. Kobe's problem (T-Mac has the same issue) is that he can make all kinda BS shots....so he tends to shoot them a lot. MJ on the other hand would take 15 turnaround J's in a row from the post....similar to how Cassell plays today. Smarter, more efficient basketball....a big man's effeciency in a guards body.
1986-87 was the 1st Year MJ was named to the NBA 1st team, the last was 1997-98. MJ was just on another level at that time. There was simply no one who dominated like him at the time.... 40+ Point Games from (86-87)-(97-98): 1. Jordan- 158 2. Wilkins- 45 3. Malone- 41 4. Ewing- 30 5. Olajuwon- 30 During this time period there were only 29 players who scored 40 or more 5+ times, 16 who did it 10+ times, 10 who did it 20+ times, and 3 who did it 40+ times. Jordan did this 158 times when no one else did it even 50 times! Wilkins, Malone, Ewing, and The Dream can add up all the 40+ games they had during this stretch and their combined total would be 146, 12 less than Jordan BY HIMSELF! There's a reason why he's the G.O.A.T...
Kobe has achieved nothing w/o Shaq! Nothing, zero, none, nada, niente, null, zilch. This is a meaningless discussion.
Neither am I, so now that we've established that lets move on So your saying he averaged all star numbers without anyone gameplanning for him? He was doubled and on the nights where he looked like vintage MJ they were just watching. Much like the Raptors were when Kobe dropped 81 Obviously because you said obviously it must be true. No I watch EVERY Laker game along with every Clipper game. I live in LA I pretty much have to. When Kobe gets the ball up top and they send 2 defenders his way he runs away from the double knowing they cant touch him once he gets an inch and uses that to create offense. In the post or the mid post the defense he faces is the same as the ones MJ faced. The only difference is MJ had to be cautious of PHYSICAL defense. MJ would do more in this league. Would you believe me if I told you Tmac in his Magic days saw more double teams than Kobe, while putting up more impressive numbers in an era where handchecking was not as called as it is now. No different than what Kobe has done on a regular season basis, but thats not enough to make me consider him the better offensive player. Im strictly objective on this stance. Read your post Are you or arent you? OR MAYBE it has to do with the pace of the game? More possessions equal to more scoring oppertunites. But you bring up an interesting point, Ill look into and if what you say is true then we should see a dramatically different offensive efficiency average throughout the years. No way does Jordan pull this off. If your talking purely on a talent level, Kobe is better then Jordan. As for the better team player...of course thats Jordan.[/QUOTE] Im talking about as a better basketball player, thats MJ [/QUOTE] As for the Wade Arguement. Umm, why does Kobe get a pass for winning with Shaq, whilst Wade doesnt? [/QUOTE] Im sorry I dont know if this argument is geared towards me but Ill answer it anyway, Shaq then wasnt Shaq now, the mere fact that you asked this question speaks volumes about your basketball IQ. [/QUOTE] The Heat had about the same record as the Lakers while Shaq was out. And Id say that the Heat still had better talent. The Wade led Heat look less then average in the weak Eastern Conference. Nope, not buying the Wade argument. [/QUOTE] Thats alil true but you have to remember that when Shaq was out, someone was either hurt, fat, or the coach was missing. Either way Wade isnt on MJ's level either. [/QUOTE]I think 99 percent of the GMs if starting a team would pick Kobe over Wade. Wade has NO where near Kobe's Range, or defensive abilities.[/QUOTE] I would take Kobe but only by a nuthair, now ask those same GM's who they would build a franchise around and Lebron is the choice.[/QUOTE] You saw what coming? You have confused me. Once again incase you didnt read it correctly, I am NOT a Kobe fan. I am saying Kobe is the better skill set, complete package as a player then Jordan was. Im sorry you feel differently, maybe its your "homerism", or your blind love for the "good ol days"[/QUOTE] Guess you didnt want to fix my post for me/ or didnt want to respond either way. But Ill repost your EXACT words just so you can break it down to me how Im suppose to interpret the meaning of this sentence: Im by far a Kobe lover Are you or arent you a self admitted Kobe lover? When was the last time a player carried as big of a responsibility as MJ had on a championship winning team? Untill Kobe can do that I dont see him anywhere near MJ.
