I don't think he is the franchise player in the sense of a Lebron or Kobe but you put him on the team without losing too much of the core you are looking at a front runner to take out the Lakers. Brooks Martin Ariza Bosh Yao I wouldn't want to ever bet against that team.
Not just in the waning moments....throughout the game. He'll force defenders to guard him at the 3 pt line, and with the defender so far removed from his comfort zone, Dirk can pretty much do whatever he wants. Of course the offense gets better when you add versatile scorers. It forces the opponents to make more defensive adjustments which creates openings for teammates. Seriously? You're criticizing Dirk's inability to win a title while DEFENDING Bosh's inability to get into the playoffs? Bosh averaged 3 more rebounds than Dirk. Let's not make mountains out of mole hills. Are you asking me if I'd take Dirk and his far superior offensive game instead of Bosh, even though it would cost me 3 rebounds per game? In a heartbeat.
Nobody in their right mind would take Dirk over Bosh right now. Dirk has been on arguably some of the best teams in recent years and been unable to do jack **** when the playoffs come. Bosh has been on a team that talent wise can't even be mentioned in the same breathe as the Mavericks. Sorry i've seen that Dirk still can't win on a stacked team, i'll take my chances with a younger Bosh on a great Rockets team.
Depends on the time frame you're talking about. I can see Dirk maintaining his high productivity for the next few years. Except leading them to the finals... True. Mavs and Raptors aren't comparable. But the Raptors had more than enough talent to make the playoffs. And they didn't. So you pass on the player who was unable to win a title in favor of a player unable to lead his team into the playoffs.
3 Rebounds isn't insignificant. Also he takes fewer shots to get teh same number of points. Also, Bosh's "vastly inferior" offense didn't hold Toronto from being a far better offensive team than Dallas. You're argument doesn't hold water. Like the above poster said. Dirk hasn't been able to win on stacked Dallas teams. Bosh hasn't been able to win on teams that don't play defense around him. I would take Bosh, especially since he's only 26 to Dirks 33, every day of the week.
He lead them to the Finals and the end result was blowing a 2-0 lead. Next year they have the best record in the league and get ousted by the the eight seed. Every year that team is just a major let down with the talent they have. Cuban does everything he can to put talent around Dirk and they still can't win. I'm sorry but like I stated I'd rather give Bosh the opportunity to have a great surrounding cast then try and give Dirk one. We've seen what Dirk can do with a good supporting cast, we haven't seen what Bosh can do.
In the back of my mind I can't help but think, bringing Bosh and his huge contract to Houston will be Deja Vu all over again.
Actually, Dirk averages one point more than Bosh. Not a big deal, but its annoying to see you repeat "fewer shots to get the same number of points" over and over. And since when is Toronto a far better offensive team than Dallas? Toronto scores 111.3 points per 100 possessions and Dallas scores 109.2. 1 extra made basket per 100 posessions makes Toronto "far better" offensively? The western conference is much tougher than the eastern. This season, the 8th seed in the WC won 50 games. The 8th seed in the EC won 41. In other words, you dont even need a winning record in the eastern conference. So to me, Bosh's inability to lead his team to the playoffs is more alarming than Dirk's inability to lead his team to the title. And to be fair to Dirk, the Mavs were cheated out of their title. If you're talking about long term contracts, then Bosh's youth absolutely must be factored into the equation. But if we're talking a 1 or 2 year contract, we'd probably be more successful with Dirk.
He certainly has the work ethic <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/8XYpmm7DEH4&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/8XYpmm7DEH4&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>
He has work ethic but he took up two spots, franchise players would get in between the lines first try every time.
I said earlier that I was referring to per 36 numbers. Dirk averages 1.5 minutes more per game. They both average 24 points per 36 (ok, well Bosh averages 23.9, but come on :grin: ) My point still stands. I disagree. Dirk has had great, not good, great teams get ousted early in the playoffs over, and over, and over. Look at this year. Yes, San Antonio may have been the best 7 seed ever, but that doesn't change the way Dirk played down the stretch in some of thsoe games. What does he do when his jumpers not falling? Does Dirk have a more diverse offensive game? Yes, he does. But has he ever proven that he can win when it matters with that style? No. Bosh's circumstance is nothing like Dirk's. His team doesn't play D. Period. What's Bosh supposed to do about taht? He can't change the fact that Andrea Bargnani and Jose Calderon are literally the worst defensive players at their respective positions or that Hedo Turkolgu probably isn't far from that at his. It doesn't matter if Dirk can make some sick shots. If on the next possession some scrub rookie center can just back down Bargnani and slam it then it was for nothing. Given the fact that he scores at the same rate at a higher efficiency and gets more rebounds, you ahve to at least say that these two players are remarkably close.
It seems like a lot of people's definition of franchise player is either too vague or too narrow. I try to take the term literally. I think what it means is that said player is the "face" of your franchise. Tmac, whether you like the guy or not, was our franchise player for those 3-4 years he was playing at an all-star level. I think if you take the too narrow approach of "the guy has to be able to lead his team to playoff success even if he has no talent", then you find that there are really only like 5 Franchise players... which doesn't make sense (because there are 30 franchises). So I take the simplistic approach. If you feel Bosh would be the "face" of the franchise for most teams (ie, #1 option, best player on the team, etc), then he's a franchise player in my book. I mean, lets rank Bosh's talent vs the league. Where would he fall? I would imagine he'd be top 20, and probably top 10 because he's started the All-star game before.
There's no reason to use per-36-min estimates. It absolutely does not. 1 extra made basket per 100 possessions does not make one team "far better offensively" than another team. Define "early in the playoffs". Are the WC semi-finals "early in the playoffs"? Finals? Yes, let's look at Dirk's playoff numbers this year. 26 ppg on 55% shooting from the field, 57% shooting from the 3 pt line, and 95% from the ft line. Yeah, he's clearly the reason the Mavs lost.... So in your opinion, Barkley, Ewing, Malone, and Stockton weren't franchise players either? Bosh can try to motivate his team and lead by example. Compare Scola and Bosh. Bosh is younger, taller, longer, and more athletic yet statistically, Bosh is not much of an upgrade. Granted, Scola is a huge overachiever, but that doesn't hide the fact that Bosh is an underachiever. Where's Bosh with the help defense? You can't just look at points and rebounds. Dirk also averaged more steals, assists, and fewer turnovers. And then consider his superior offensive game. Bosh's main advantage is his youth, but if we're talking about a 1-2 year contract, Dirk is the better value.
Have not watched enough Bosh's games. How good a rebounder is he? I know he has good numbers, but how much his numbers got inflated due to he's the only decent rebounder in his team?
Bosh was better than Dwight on the olympic team and played more minutes. He also gives Gasol and Dwight the business everytime they play against them.
Of those three players between Dwight Howard, Pau Gasol and Chris Bosh, which of those players can actually play with their back to the basket out of the low block.
Franchise players as of now.... CP3 Kobe Wade Lebron Nowitzki Duncan Yao Everyone else to me is either borderline or in the making.
My point wasn't that the Raptors are way better offensively. If I said that i was mistaken, but it was still not my point. My point was that with Bosh, who you apparently think is far inferior to Dirk offensively, they did just fine scoring more than the Mavs. If you want to make the Raps better you don't try to make them marginally better at something they're already good at. Earlier than some of his teams should have gone out. They were the odds on favorites in 2007 and lost in the 1st round. My point is that Dirk has had much better teams and has still ultimately failed. Bosh, on far inferior teams, has also failed. So saying "well at least Dirk got his team to the playoffs and that makes him a franchise guy" to me is stupid, because, 1) his teams were always much better than Bosh's, and 2) What did they do once they got there? What did he do in the Game 4? They win that game they win the series. Dirk does this sometimes where he'll go absolutely nuts for a while, then just sort of disapear for stretches. The only shot he can get consistently is his fall away jumper. When defenses tighten and doubles come, he can't do anything but pass it out. Go watch that 4th quarter again. That's what I was referring to. And also, aren't you basically making the same argument for Dirk that I'm making for Bosh? "Well look at the numbers! Its not HIS fault they failed" I never said I didn't think Dirk (or those guys) was a franchise player. I was just trying to point out that the only reason Dirk is considered one when compared to say, Bosh, is because Dirk has been blessed with far better teams which have done more, though not much more. Swap them and we'd be singing Bosh's praises and we'd be talking about how Dirk can't lead his team to the playoffs, or, if they do make the playoffs, they're always cannon fodder for the Cavs. Doesn't change hwo amazingly talented Dirk is, but suddenly he's inferior because he's been dealt a short deck. Hey that's a good point. You can't possibly believe that with Dirk the Raps would be 5-10 games better. At best they'd be good enough for the 8 seed or maybe the 7 seed. In both series they'd get stomped. So, assuming that Dirk would get them over the top, would consistent 1st round exits, ala McGrady, still make him a franchise player? Despite Scola's and encouraging his teamates and Battier's help team defense, we were still terrible defensively this year. Why? Because our guards can't stop penetration and we don't have a C who can mask that problem by contesting shots. Kinda like the Raps, though not quite as bad. One player can only do so much. Do you really think Nowitzki would make that much of a difference, or any difference? Nowitzki plays on a team with a legit, albeit talentless, center, a good defensive PG in Kidd and Shawn Marion in the starting lineup. He doesn't have to expend all his energy making up for his teammates mistakes. If he had to do so because they were getting beat every single time down the court, do you think his numbers would be so awesome? Bosh has a better eFG%, which is made to include the value of 3's btw to help Dirk, shoots more FT's (imagine that with Yao, Martin, and Lowry) and gets 2 more offensive rebounds a game. So basically. Dirk takes 2 extra possessions to get his points and Bosh gives you 2 extra possessions via offensive rebounds. And you're right, Dirk does average more steals, assists, and fewer turnovers. But if you want to talk about insignificant differences... BTW Bosh's PER is 2.1 higher...just sayin.. If Bosh were on the Mavs they would still be an amazingly awesome team that would be perenial contenders. Would they do more than the current Mavs? I don't know. But they sure wouldn't do any less. So really, what's the difference between Bosh and Nowitzki?
