Is Bosh a franchise player?

Whatever.

This is kind of what I'm talking about though. We're getting hung up on "well, he hasn't led his team out of his first round so he sucks" and "no wait, his team sucks so it's not his fault". That stuff matters when we are talking about who is the best in the league, not when we are talking about which players are good players to have on YOUR team.

Kobe missed the playoffs when it was just him and Odom and some scrubs. He struggled to make it out of the first round until the Gasol trade and when Bynum came around. So clearly talent makes a difference. KG was relatively unsuccessful in Minnisota (a few playoff series wins but never serious threats), then he gets two potential HOF candidates around him and they win the title next year and are threats to win it again this year. Dwayne Wade wins a title with Shaq and some solid vets on the team, can't make it out of the first round otherwise.

It's not a good idea to evaluate talent strictly on team success, for the reasons I just mentioned.

 

Franchise player or not with Bosh you are better. With Scola/Hill you are worse.

When you have an opportunity to improve you take it.....

 

So where do you put Dwayne Wade, who carried his team to a ring when he was on a stacked team, but cant break out of 40 wins without? Is he a franchise player? Is he an alpha dog?

How about Dwight Howard? Is he the alpha dog who can take over a game? Is he a franchise player? He is about to make it to the ECF two straight years. Is he the type of guy who yells at guys who make mistakes?

You are basically saying if you dont have Dirk, Kobe, Lebron, Durant then don't try. No offense but you basically have one idea in your head of how to build a championship team and dont think anything else will work. It just doesnt hold weight.

Is Hakeem an alpha dog? What happens if the Nuggets dont beat the Sonics and they eliminate us as usual? What if Mario misses the kiss of death? Is Hakeem somehow less of a player because he doesnt get those two rings, even though he could of played exactly the same way, but other things outside of his control just happened to not go our way? He may be "PERCEIVED" differently, but he is the exact same guy.

I absolutely do not buy your theory that you have to have a defined option A, a defined option B, a defined option C. That you have to have an alpha dog who keeps his teamates in line and can take over a game, etc. etc. There are so many more factors to the outcome of a game or series than that, its ridiculous.

You put the absolute best team on the floor you can and you roll the dice. You either win or you don't.

 

Dirk carried his team to a 1st round exit against the 8th seed.
Then, Dirk carried his team to a 1st round exit against the 6th seed.

 

Is there....is there logic here? Do I sense logic?

THERE IS A GOD!

 

Your post failed in so many ways i don't know where to start, but i will start at the begining. Wade led a team with odom,brian grant, and caron butler to the 2nd rd as a rookie. The next year they traded 3/5th of that starting 5 and got shaq. Shaq was clearly the best player and they went to the ecf. The next year with shaq declining and injured and clearly wade was the best player, they won a title. You say they were stacked, but all they had was a bunch of has beens at that point in their career.

Howard can dominate a game defensively in case you haven't taken note. How many 20-20 games he has in the playoffs? First game of the playoffs this season he had 9 blocks. His team is top 5 defensively despite having mostly avg defensive players. His teams have had a top 3 record 2 years in a row and have won defensive player of the year 2 times in a row.

I don't know where you were in 1986 or if you were even born because obviously you wasn't watching basketball. In case you missed it, Akeem was the best player on the team and led them to the finals in his 2nd year in the pro's. Even after that he led teams to the 2nd rd and took trash to the playoffs. Dirk minnefield,derrick cheivous,purvis short,world b free and i could go on and on. Its true they had trouble with the 90's sonics, but when he got his chance, he took full advantage of it by winning 2 titles and 2 finals mvp's. Even before then he was considered a guy who dominated both ends of the floor. Yes Hakeem was an alpha dog. No one had to be brought in for toughness or a bodyguard. No one had to wonder why hakeem wasn't getting the ball because he got on kenny,maxwell, and whomever ass it was to make sure he got the ball. Even in his calmer,later days, feared dream. He was an alpha in every sense of the world.

In basketball unlike many sports, 1 guy with talent and attitude can make a huge difference. When gasol was playing poorly and kobe was in his mix, alot of non competitve, new age, posters was calling kobe a jerk and wrong. Well, gasol played his ass off the next game and they eventually won the ring.Thats the differnce between guys like kobe,jordan,duncan,dream and some of the other greats and guys like yao,tracy,bosh,webber and cats like that. Its not talent, its the jerk in them that demands excellence from everyone. Thats why you read stories about Jordan fighting kerr and guys on his team. Eevery chicago writer will tell you jordan ran practice. he was the police in the lockeroom and on the court and demanded great practices as well as great play on game day. When you give a guy max, you expect the full package all the time. A coach can never be the leader and the hardass of the team. That has to be the best player and most times the highest paid player. If not, all you have is a bunch of good guys hooping. You can say i don't know how to construct a team, but that can be said for any gm that has never won or cam e close to a title also. I do know this from playing at the collegiate level, a team will always take the identity of their best player good and bad.

 

Kobe missed the most games in his career, traded the best center in basketball and the hof coach leaves. The next year they're in the playoffs.The year after that they're in the playoffs again. The next year before bynums injury, they have the best record in the west. They ended the year going to the finals and losing. The following year they win the title. I said a franchise player should alway get you to the playoffs. KG,Allen,and Pierce were not franchise players the 2 yrs prior to hooking up in boston. They were still really good players, but weren't the same as their paychecks had suggested. When they hooked up, they were still good enough to be special together.

I brought up Dirk because he packed a team to the finals and no one can take that away. Do i think he shoots too many jumpers? Yes, but nobody on this board can deny taking his team to the finals and being mvp.

 

I see you got jokes.

 

(Well first off I said you seem to only know one way to build a team.)

Secondly, I disagree with this. All you have done is pick the best player on whatever team wins the championship and say "yea, he has it, thats what we need, an alpha dog" while completely ignoring all the other factors that go into it.

Kobe won because he got Shaq and later Gasol, Odom and roleplayers.
Jordan won because he got Pippen, Grant, Rodman, Kukoc etc.
Duncan won because he had Drob and later Manu, Horry, Bowen, Parker.
Wade won because he got Shaq, Payton, Haslem etc.
Garnett won because he got Pierce, Allen, Rondo.

Guess what? When they didnt have those guys, they didnt win. I don't know how you can not see that.

My point is, I dont know why in the world you seem completely unwilling to go to battle with our current roster + Bosh. This is as stacked a team as we may have ever had. Why is rebuilding more desireable than this to you?

Yea Yao may get hurt, but if he does you still have a 4 really good starters all relatively young. You can simply choose to not resign him and add a different center later. You keep saying lets move Yao for Bosh, lets rebuild, yadda yadda. Why would we ever do that when he can literally add Bosh for pennies.I don't particularily enjoy the up and downs with injury, but you can't deny that if we catch some luck and go into the playoffs healthy that Brooks/Lowry/Ariza/Bud/Bosh/Scola/Yao/Hayes isnt a scary team.

I just really dont get you, this just blew my mind. I hear you bash Battier 100% of the time and then you turn around and say we need this. Obviously he doesnt take over the game with his offense but you can bet your bottom dollar he makes sure people arent missing thier rotations and are getting back on D. I dont know if you have noticed but all of our guys give 100% practically always. Do you think that magically happens?

Whatever, we just disagree I guess.

 

So to me, Bosh's inability to lead his team to the playoffs is more alarming than Dirk's inability to lead his team to the title.

And to be fair to Dirk, the Mavs were cheated out of their title.
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i can‘t agree more

 

Is Pau Gasol a franchise player?

 

So would we pass on getting Gasol if we could? Honestly, as far as I can tell, a good chunk of you are arguing that if we're not getting Durant, Lebron, or Wade, we shouldn't bother. Perfect as the enemy of the good and all that in the end.

 

I haven't read this whole thread, but I trust somebody by now has reminded DaDakota that Bosh scores most of his points from the high post, usually on the left elbow area, and not from inside "the paint" just a few feet from the basket.

Now if only we culd get a coach who runs a high post offense...

 

You're talking about Jeff Van Gundy right?

Yeah, gotta be Jeff Van Gundy.

 

LeBron, Wade, Kobe, Howard, Durant, Paul, Williams, Roy, Anthony, and that's just off the top of my head. Who the hell do you consider franchise players that there are only 3 or 4 of?

 

I say Bosh alone with junk is a no. Put him with Yao (or anothre teams big) down low and it's a different situation. I think it frees him up to do what he needs to do, the same can be said with Yao being able to feel comfortable not having to be the only big man on the floor that can produce. I think he is a difference maker playing along side of a player like Yao.

 

if the price is right.

 

Agreed! We won't get Bosh for free. We need pay high price to get him. The question is that whether he is worth the price?!