Also Ariza's too important on defense. When Bev can't handle his man, it's Ariza who takes care of it.
No dude. That guy doesn't watch the games just the box score. He apparently didn't see Elfrid Payton, Stephen Curry, Joseph, Conley (when the Grizzlies destroyed us), Ty Lawson, and Kyrie Irving amongst others take Beverley to school. I understand the importance of defense quite well. He still can't explain why the team defense did not drop off at all without Beverley in the rotation when Canaan and Jason Terry were starting. Why did opposing PG's have random bad games then too? It's just hit or miss. Beverley isn't locking down anyone during a 7 game series. That guy wants to talk about how Bev is gonna lock down Westbrook, Lillard, or Conley during a 7 game series. Lmao. Yeah he's totally gonna do that. It's not like lillard scored 20+ ppg on 50% fg and 60% 3fg against us last year. It's not like Historically westbrook has dominated Beverley in every match up they've ever had. Oh wait. That's exactly what's happened. And the PG position is exactly what's needed to be upgraded. It is the weakest position on the team. It has been for a while. There is no other position on the team that can viably be upgraded without losing an important rotation piece that provides much more to the team than Bev. This is especially so in the starting line-up. Also Morey has shown in the past when he wants a new starter he clears out the old incumbent. He doesn't just simply downgrade them. When Brooks became starter, Rafer was gone from the team. Not backing him up. He traded for Lowry to do that. When Brooks was traded, Lowry started. Brooks wasn't just demoted. He was gone. When Beverley supplanted Lin, Lin was traded. Beverley will be gone.
Also, why the hell is Jeremy Lin being mentioned in this thread? He was the worst starting PG in the NBA before Price took his spot. No reason to bring him up. Now the worst starting PG in the western conference is a two way battle between Price and Ingles. The top 11 teams in the west other than the Rockets all have a better player at the 1 spot than the Rockets. Hell some of them have 2 better players at the PG spot than the Rockets. GS - Curry Portland - Lillard Memphis - Conley Dallas - Rondo Clippers - Paul Spurs - Parker (I'd say Joseph is better than Bev at this point) Phoenix - Dragic and Bledsoe OKC - Westbrook and Jackson NO - Holiday Denver - Lawson Beverley was fine last year and effectively what we needed. But when we changed our personnel towards more defensive oriented players, the need at the PG position changed. This is a new issue this season. Trevor Ariza pretty much made Beverley expendable on his own because the dynamic of the starting line-up changed and Ariza is worth twice as much as Bev to this team. The team is imbalanced right now and good teams are taking advantage. Our defensive woes aside, we still can't score when it matters against teams who take Harden out of the game. We will not go far in the playoffs that way. I could see something like years past happen where Beverley and some other pieces are traded to solidify other spots on the team. For example: Back up center or back up SG since Brewer is basically relieving Ariza. Or hell even another trade for a stretch 4. This would basically force McHale to make Canaan the starter (something he was forced to earlier this year during which the team looked the best) and Shved to be the project PG backing him up. Similar to how Lowry did that for Brooks. Or how Dragic did that for Lowry.
Oh, I don't know. Perhaps because he was the secondary playmaker on this team last year and we're discussing the need for a secondary playmaker? Anyway, Norris Cole is doing a nice job of making plays for the Heat down the stretch tonight...
I'm not so sure about that. This poster brought up Lin as an example of people that Beverley is better than. I completely agree with that. But Lin is irrelevant to the discussion of the team and Bev as it is currently. http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showpost.php?p=9494678&postcount=121 Bringing up Lin has nothing to do with anything. The team last year had not 2, but 3 play makers in the rotation. I like swapping out Ariza for Parsons and I think it was absolutely the right move for this team. But Parsons' ball handling and distributing ability is still completely underrated for someone of his size. He did a lot for this team. The only reason either Lin or Parsons should ever be brought up is to show that Harden can (and has) flourished next to players who also use the ball to create. Our offense was one of the best in the league last year for a reason. Unfortunately Jeremy Lin is a terrible basketball player. When our rotation is changed come the trade deadline, I think we will see this team dominate once again.
I would disagree. I think you see it that way because you're coming to the conversation with a different view than some of the rest of us -- you've made it abundantly clear that you're in the Bev-is-complete-trash-dump-him-immediately camp, while many of us are in the Bev-isn't-a playmaker-but-would-still-have-positive-value-if-coupled-with-one camp. I don't think anybody is pining for Lin the player... just pointing out that the notion of having a rotation like last season's where you have a secondary playmaker coming off the bench is equally feasible this season (ideally having a player more consistent and reliable than Lin was last year). That's why I'm mentioning him, at least. Sort of unrelated -- I'm far from a Lin stan, but I do think some people conveniently ignore the fact that having him on the roster last year was generally a nice luxury when Harden missed time.
Actually I think Beverley is a good player. Much better than Lin. I also give him a ton of credit for improving his 3pt shot like he has. He's become a true 3 and D player. It remains though that he's the worst starting PG (arguably) in the western conference aside from maybe one or two players on lottery teams. His value is the highest it'll ever be right now and it would serve this team best to cash in on him while it's still possible. Once again, the reason that we could have him in the starting line-up last year had more to do with Parsons being on the court with Harden almost always. This team doesn't have that luxury anymore. So just getting a playmaker to come off the bench still would not solve our issues. At the same time relegating Bev to the bench does not make much sense either because we could nab more value for him than he'd provide for us off the bench. I've never thought he's trash and I've always loved the toughness he brings. He's just not the right fit anymore because we have Ariza.
I wonder how much George Hill would cost. good shooter. Smart player. Can play on or off ball. Signed to a good contract. Popovich obviously thinks a lot of him. Seems like one of those trades that could come out of no where but make sense instantly. I wouldn't offer DMo, NOP 1st, or Capela. Something like Papa, TJones, Canaan, and the NYK 2nd. All of this assumes Hill is healthy.
To answer your, yes PB can be a championship point guard, just not one that starts. Off the bench he would be a key piece to a championship team.
I don't need to read your clearly biased and incorrect assessment of cherry picked stats. Beverley 2014-15 Basketball Reference Opm + 1.6 Dpm + 0.9 Total +2.5 NBA.com +/- +2.8 ESPN real plus/minus +.93 82games Simple Rating +.5 Not only are you making a point no one is arguing. Your imaginary argument's premise is based on bad information.
So you admit you didn't actually read anything. That's great. My "imaginary argument" is against some of the opinions that have clearly been put forth in this thread and others. Don't worry though. Since you've admitted you don't read anything, I have zero expectations that you'd know that. My information is just fine as is my assessment. I may be biased, but so are you. You have the blinders on and have to defend every last thing about this team until the end. Your comments in the McHale thread have proven that. I'm not even going to comment at length on the 82 games metric you just brought up since the "simple rating" is comprised of a few components. And I already went into length about the net ratings 82 games showed about Bev, which were poor. But, so everyone can make their own judgement, the "production" component has Bev at a -2.4 rating between own and opponent production. http://www.82games.com/1314/ROLRTG8.HTM (I'll provide links for you as well since you don't feel the need to be transparent with your "unbiased" information) As far as ESPN RPM. Bev is #22 among active point guards. But hey, at least he's better than the likes of Jeremy Lin, Jerryd Bayless, and Ronnie Price! http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM/position/1 NBA +/- is a well known joke of a stat that everyone scoffs at so I'm not even sure why you'd reference that. Apparently I'm not the only one with bad information.
Let me just do my due diligence here since you are accusing me of not reading your posts. Lets see if we can find any worthwhile points, or if its just a bunch of nonsense. None here Direct contradiction of your own words immediately after you wrote them. Baseless speculation and a general agreement that an alternative is not presently available. You identify the issue, but reach the wrong conclusion on how to remedy it by attaching negative association to Beverley. This is the first hint of your blatant bias or agenda, or whatever you want to call it. None here. And clearly incorrect as numerous advanced statistics, whichever one you want to pick, show him as a net positive player, while many other Rockets are not. He is obviously not the "weakest link", despite your claims. Terry, Papp and Smith all show to be significantly worse. There you go with that cherry picking again. There are always exceptions. Of course some teams are going to have elite PGs. But the trend is the opposite. More times than not, the PG is a role player. Here is a nice article on the topic for your leisure: And again, for the umpteenth time. Everyone agrees we need more talent in the form of a playmaker. That is not a dispute. You, however, are locked in on this idea that Beverley is negatively affecting the Rockets, while just about everyone else is looking to add to what we already have. Now I am going to repeat this, because it really seems to be the critical point you can't grasp for whatever reason. You - Anti Beverley due to lacking play making skills Everyone else - Pro adding a play maker No **** he is the worst amongst the top 11. That's because the majority of top 11 western conference teams have franchise players at their PG spot. You don't compare franchise players to role players. That is Harden's comparison slot. You compare Beverley with the other role players on the wings (Thompson, Barnes, Batum, Mathews, Allen, Barnes, Leonard, Tucker, Evans, Lee, Ellis, Reddick, Green, Roberson, Gordon, etc). Most of them are specialists just like he is. Your comparison is about as useful as saying Harden is soooo much better than every other SG in the top 11. Nobody ****ing cares. Beverley is a role player, he has a role. His role is to play defense, not turn the ball over, hit threes, and grab offensive boards. No one really cares what you want from the PG in our system logging 30+ minutes. Complaining about how he can't handle the ball, is like complaining Ariza can't post up or run a pick and roll. Thats not his role. If you are concerned about playmaking, I think we should explore adding a playmaker. None here Great points, one might suggest we need another play maker, which is what everyone is in agreement with. LOL you are so caught up in your own cherry picked examples, you can't seem to understand the following: EVERYONE AGREES WE NEED ANOTHER PLAY MAKER. None here This last line seriously made me laugh out loud. No offense but I really think this whole thread just went way over your head. The OP asked is Beverley a championship PG, which is a question that just doesn't make sense, because plenty of role playing PGs have won rings. If you actually bothered to read the responses, most people alluded to that and agreed Bev is fine but we need more play making, which is supported by the numerous examples in the past. If you bothered to read the whats our biggest need, you might have noticed people want another playmaker. If you bothered reading any thread, you might have Dragic's name pop up every page of every thread. And BTW, I read your posts. You posted NOTHING about metrics other than some box scores from losses. More of your babbling and trying to scapegoat Beverley. Yea, now that I see your posts in succession, I am quite sure this thread has gone over your head. You really need to abandon this position against position analysis. You don't compare teams position by position, you look at units and how they perform together. That's pretty much why no one responded to your post. No one is arguing other teams have better PGs, it just doesn't matter. So now you are saying adding a playmaker won't solve our issues, and the only solution is to replace Beverley all together. Of course you made this proclamation with no basis or reasoning behind it. We could certainly add a playmaker to the bench and roll with what we have. If Harden gets overwhelmed, as you described, simply bring in the playmaker alongside Harden. That easily alleviates any of the issues you described above. But I suspect that wouldnt work for you because its not about adding a playmaker, its about getting rid of Beverley. I must have missed where you went into length about net ratings. I appreciate the link. I really like how you used last years numbers. Especially considering your closing line. Could be a simple mistake or it could be because this years numbers completely dismantles your entire premise: http://www.82games.com/1415/1415HOU.HTM Regarding ESPN, of course he ranks #22 among point guards, because most of them are star players. But when you make the appropriate comparison among his fellow roleplayers, he is pretty much middle of the pack. I am now 100% positive I see your position: 1.) You think Ariza makes him expendable 2.) You think his trade value is high 3.) You think his defense does not outweigh his offense. 4.) You don't think he is as good as other PGs on other teams who are stars and feel the need to desperately argue this point despite no one disagreeing. 5.) You believe because other teams have stars at a position, then the Rockets need more talent at the position. 6.) You believe adding a playmaker won't help in of itself, Beverley has to go. Everyone else: 1.) Bev's fine, lets add a play maker though.
Writing paragraph upon paragraph in red Don't you have some thread to goto where you cry and moan about how our fans are so bad ?
OMG Bev only shoots 40% from 3 OMG Damian Lillard shoots 37.5% from 3 OMG Houston is only #3 in PG defense OMG Bev only averages 3.3 APG with a 16.6% usage OMG Damian Lillard averages 6.2 APG with a 25.9% usage OMG Bev's hair isn't as tall as Norris Cole's but isn't as short as Damian Lillard's OMG We can't get Damian Lillard??? OMG Where is Norris Cole???
A good majority of the posts on this forum are backed with no supporting evidence. More often than not people here are knee jerking know it alls that don't have much to offer other than what they think won't work, not what will. In that sense, I agree, there are way too many bad fans.
The problem is your PERCEPTION of Beverley's value is different than what reality is. You recently made a dumb statement implying Bev hasn't contained any of the elite pg's this year, and the stats suggest otherwise. Ofcourse PG's have had great games against us (Kyrie Irving, Steph Curry etc). It happens to the best defenders. But more PG's have had subpar games against us (Westbrook, Rose, Lillard, Conley etc..). The good ones outweigh the bad. The question I have to YOU is, if you replace Bev with a Dragic per se, who exactly are you gonna put on these elite guards to slow them down? If say Westbrook gets hot in a game 6, who are you expecting to put on him to force him into a high turnover poor shooting nite? Are you expecting Dragic to do this? You feel comfortable with Dragic guarding a athletic PG like WB in a playoff series? Um, yea
Great post btw. That guy just doesn't watch Rocket games. You can tell because of statements like "Bev's the worst PG among the top Western Conference teams" lol. Ofcourse, the top WC teams have franchise building PG's. Shouldn't have wasted your time
