we did, but w/ the old rules. think about the teams that are winning this year, and why. that team would be competitve, especially if allowed to develop. not saying rudy would be a good coach for that team this year. rudy was clearly tired, and needed a break. but the lakers are better than expected, and they're still getting used to on eanother.
Deuce, that roster you put up has championship written all over it or at least deep down in the playoffs. But thanks to the Blind(CD) and the Dumb(Van Dummy) we have a wonderful NBDL team to root for, man I'm depressed!
Posey. Yeah, he's bombing away this year. Check those stats with the strict hand-check rules. I think he's about to crack 37% FG% and 28% on 3's. Oh yeah, sprained foot... otherwise he'd be James Worthy. basso, The Grizzlies and Nuggets are built with players that are pretty much gazelles from top to bottom. They suck. Even Utah is capable of running, but they suck even with AK47 capable of playing the game you guys are talking about and young guards capable of running. The San Antonio Spurs are perennial winners that pick and choose when to run. They don't have any elite running game. Admittedly Ginobili is a good slasher and Parker is quick. A good team will win no matter what. Good players will adapt. We aren't a good team and we don't have good players outside of maybe 2 or 3, and I sure as hell hope we're not going to sit here re-engineering the team every time there's a rule change. But the grass is always greener on the other side, isn't it?
DoD, "This Rockets game brought to you by Geritol..." That's the point of this thread. Not necessarily those SPECIFIC players, Posey etc, but the fact that this team is OLD and SLOW. We are old and slow because THOSE are the types of players JVG feels comfortable with, yet at the same time their limitations are the things JVG is upset about. WTF!? The point of this thread is that the Rockets NEED to get younger, more athletic, quicker. We need players to GROW with Tmac and Yao. Hired guns are fine if they are peppered on the roster. I am about to sneeze our roster has so much pepper. I want the Rockets to win, but getting TMac was the reason we werent going to settle for the 8th seed in the playoffs like last year. We were daring to be great. If we arent going to settle then let's continue to build for the future with youth. To me, the moves we are making are "quick fix" moves. We need to be thinking longer term. And if JVG is making the call on these moves than that is a problem because HE is only concerned with the SHORT term and his ass.
Phoenix is better because of Steve Nash who pushes them to run. They were a highly athletic team before him that got nowhere. Twolves were good last year and are still a pretty good team. Heat? Shaq. But at the same time, they were a good team to end the season last year - they've just gotten better. Kings? They've been good for a few seasons althought they can't get over the hump. San Antonio? Been there done that, nothing new. Dallas? See Kings. What exactly are you seeing different this season from the past few seasons with regards to the teams near the top? They're the same teams for the most part. Seattle is the one that's improved quite a bit. I don't attribute that to some rule change for these teams. They're just good teams that know how to play. If the Grizz and Nuggets had been at the top of the standings, I'd concede your point. As for the team that Deuce posted being a great team if allowed to develop, that's all hypothetical. None of us have crystal balls and I can't argue for or against that.
there are exceptions to every rule. and of course, good players, well coached, should win no matter what the rules. but remember that the suns and sonics were lottery teams last year, and now they're two of the best teams in the league. sure, the suns added nash, and he's been amazing, but who did the sonics pick up? griz and nugs? they've both been through coaching changes (or are going through them) indicative of larger structural problems. the larger point remains- the rockets got older and less atheletic at the exact moment when the league changed the rules to give an advantage to teams that could slash and run. last years team would've thrived under these conditions, assuming OBG didn't alienate them all. instead, we got rid of any player, other than T-Mac, who could've thrived in the new environment, and replaced them w/ players who fit OBG's system. unfortunately, that system saw its peak last june.
Just wanted to point out, I was watching the Rockets/Cavs game on NBALP and the Cavs announcers pretty much said what I said in my post. That JVG prefers older, veteran players to younger players to play in "his system". That's what he had in NY and that's what he is bringing here to Houston. Is this team going to perpetually be a team with Yao/Tmac surrounded by older unathletic players? On the JVG watch, probably so. BTW, how good did Varejao look tonight for the Cavs? He was a THROW IN in the Battie for Gooden deal. Too bad the Rockets werent smart enough to have HIM thrown in with THEIR Tmac deal. I can see why the Magic didnt want to throw Gooden in instead of Howard. But we probably could have gotten Varejao added if we wanted him. Varejao is EXACTLY the type of ENERGY PF this team needs coming off the bench. But we were too short sighted to see the value there. Again, another opportunity to get quality youth. Then again, even if we got him, would he even play?
The '99-'00 Lakers won 67 games & the championship - their supporting starters were AC Green, Ron Harper (both in their late 30s), and Glen Rice. How is that any better than what the Rockets have now? That's less athleticism and youth than you see on the Rockets. I realize the Rockets have no Shaq, but we're not talking about competing for a championship here, just having a winning record.
Exactly. Yao is not Shaq. If Yao performed at Shaq level everynight maybe we would be able to win a championship with this crew? But I doubt he is going to reach that level. A winning record? Yes. The team assmebled right now should have a winning record. Will "THIS" team win a championship? Very doubtful. And I dont think us continuing to add hired guns will do it. The entire point of this thread is that we need to surround Yao and Tmac with complimentary players, players that are young and that can grow with them. Yao needs an athletic PF to compliment his game. Shaq didnt. Freak, are you suggesting that the type of team assembled right now is the way to go for the Rockets to win a championship? We should just keep adding those aging veteran players for the next 4-5 years? Do you disagree we shouldnt get younger, more athletic and try to acquire players that will grow with Tmac and Yao?
Direction. That is what I am looking for. I guess what I am trying to say is that while I want this team to "win" and progress, I also want to build it for the "long haul." That process started when we blew up the team to get Tmac. I guess I am worried that JVG is going to continue to add aging veterans, that only are willing to run HIS system, to surround Tmac and Yao. Instead of trying to add youth that will grow with the team. I am worried that JVG doesnt have the "patience" to allow younger players time to grow and be great. And that's what we need right now. I am worried that in the next 4 years we will have Yao and Tmac continually surrounded each year by new cast of aging players. A continuous loop of stop gap measures because JVG is not willing to build from the ground up because he doesn't have the "patience" for younger players that are prone to make mistakes on the court during their learning process. I am asking if there is there anyone here that can defend this strategy? And for those that agree with my assesments, let me hear ya.
This is why so many drool at the prospect of getting a guy like Nene or Chandler... we need to find someone who will play with a lot of energy and be around for years with Yao and McGrady. When you add the likes of Ward, Howard and Mutombo and now Wesley and Barry, you're going for it <I>now</I>... and it's incredibly frustrating when you're still sucking it up. Atleast with a young, learning forward with potential, you know the future has a chance to be brighter while you're losing now ... but right now the Rockets are trying to find assets around these guys, and are going to have to do it again soon. If the Rockets could dump every player except Yao and McGrady for nothing ... just get rid of every contract they had and be responsible for no salary outside of Yao and T-Mac, they would actually be better off, and that's what is pathetic about this team. You could get just as much from Andre Barrett and Scott Padgett as you can from Tyronn Lue, Charlie Ward and Mo Taylor, yet those guys take up cap space and annual guaranteed roster spots. As for a young, strong power forward, we can't blame CD for not being able to one on the trade market with the assets that he currently has... you can't just dump any two-to-five players for Dalembert, Nene, etc. Doesn't work that way. But CD and JVG are responsible for bringing this supporting cast in, and JVG responsible for not getting the cast to work. We desperately need youth and energy in the frontcourt... and I don't think they should waste their first round pick unless they can acquire that.
Clutch, I agree. I think the mission from here on out for the Rockets is to go with a youth movement to surround Yao and Tmac with role players that will grow with the team for many years to come. Chances are though we wont be able to make those moves during the season. We can try to exchange out old parts for more old parts in hopes for better "fits" but I dont think we will make any headway in terms of youth with those moves. Like you, I wouldnt move my 1st round pick unless I got a younger player (Chandler, Nene etc) in return. This summer our 1st round pick and our MLE will be GOLDEN to us in terms of adding at least 2 "young" core players to this team. That should be the #1 goal. Chances are our first round pick will be a decent one so we can't miss on it like we have in the past. We have missed too many lately and it really has set us back. The same can be said for the MLE. We can't afford to split the MLE and offer it to two older playes like we did this year. We need to find one good young player with good upside and offer them the FULL MLE. However, knowing what we need to do and actually DOING it though are two different things. Even if management recognizes we should get younger, would JVG play the young guys? That's part of the problem. Does JVG even WANT young guys? Seems to me JVG only wants the guys "he knows" versus the "unkown" which in reality could be EXACTLY the type of player with the type of skill set he is looking for.
This whole discussion would be moot if we had drafted anybody worth a dam in the past 3 or 4 years. Maybe the Eddie Griffin debacle was just a failed high risk play (this thread never gets started if he had worked out like we all thought he would) but if your freaking first round draft choices can't even play in the league, your only choice is to load up with cast off geezers. Nobody is just going to give you atheletic young players. Yao was a gift of the lottery gods, T-Mac and Stevie traded themselves here. Excluding them what has the management of this team done. Funny, every time I show I'm imcompetent , I get fired. That's what makes this Boki thing such a mystery. Hell, you can teach anybody to shoot and play defense. But now where can we come up with a 6'10" young player who can run and jump? (say with me Badiene, Badiene) (well, you have to have a DREAM)
I dont think there is any quesiton the Griffin and Nachbar draft picks not working for us have set us back. Perhaps also not resinging James Posey as well (as we initially acquired him via a former Rockets 1st round pick in KT). So you can pretty much say that first rounders, Griffin, Nachbar, Posey(KT) have not worked out or we havent chosen to resign them. Any team in the NBA can't afford to not have their 1st rounders not pan out like that over a short time span. Like you mentioned, getting Yao was a gift from the Gods. We got set back. But we can still recover. It all starts this summer with the MLE and our 1st round pick. Perhaps we can even jump start it via using our 5.2M Trade Exception to add another tradeable asset to this team. We can recover. But I admit I question whether the CD/JVG management team has the ability to make it happen. And that's frustrating!
Why didn't we use some of the trade exception in the Wesley trade? If it was about getting rid of Nachbar, why didn't we keep JJ and use the trade exception, or if the Hornets wanted JJ, why not keep Boki and use some of the trade exception? DD
I don't think getting 'younger' is a necessity. Getting 'better' is. Yes, I think the supporting cast is irrelevant if McGrady & Yao play up to their potential. Ron Harper started at point guard for two different championship teams! Ron Harper! The guy was a gunner Jordan wannabe for most of his career, but somehow he ends up as a championship point guard, multiple times with different teams, at the end of his career no less? Great players make everyone else look better. This is how Hakeem won a championship with basically a bunch of castoffs.
If you are saying that for this team to take it to the next level we need Yao and Tmac to imrpove their game, then I am right there with ya Freak! Agreed. This team will rise and fall with the greatness those two bring to the table. No question about it. However, I am not ready to say McGrady is in Jordan's level or Yao is in Shaq's or Hakeem's level. That remains to be seen whether they ever come close to reaching those levels. In the meantime, I wouldn't hold my breath that Yao and Tmac take a rag-tag bunch of geezers to the promise land. Could it happen? Perhaps. But I would rather take a longer range view and try to get younger which in term gets us more athletic. Keep in mind when Hakeem won with his "cast offs" some of those "cast offs" were YOUNG players like Horry and Cassell and then had a roster peppered with some older players like Smith, Elie etc. There was "balance." That's all I am asking for here.
also remember that Hakeem and Shaq didn't win right away. it took akeem 10 years to win that championship- this is just Yao's third season. sure, akeem went to the finals his second season, but that was a freak, and a freak shot. but i absolutely agree about the pick- don't trade it, unless you can go young. would you trade it and other assests for Chandler and Duhon, assuming chicago would part w/ either? but as long as we're moving geezers around, would you trade mutombo, and either Mo-T/J-Ho, for a brian grant and change? We'd give up something at the backup 5, but Grant's a much better fit at the 4, even if he's expensive and getting old himself.
It was Barrett's turn to go. First Bowen, then Nachbar and then Barrett. Gaines has been off and on a few times. JVG was taking turns with people on the IR (all 4 of them were healthy when they went on IR). The MORE confusing move was JVG taking Ward OFF the IR list. Ward should be banished to the IR list for the rest of his tenure on this team.
