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Iraqi Weekly: Saddam Ordered Training of Al-Qa'ida Members

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout: Debate & Discussion' started by basso, Oct 20, 2003.

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  1. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    Yeah, I wonder why the military hasn't made it more public, I mean it would be great PR, and they have already been ranting about a vial of botox and a bunch of "mobile weapons trailers" that weren't; jeez, if I could only think of a reason why this hasn't been done...........:confused:
     
    #41 SamFisher, Oct 21, 2003
  2. bamaslammer

    bamaslammer Member

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    That's the beauty of the marketplace at work. :D
     
    #42 bamaslammer, Oct 21, 2003
  3. Troy McClure

    Troy McClure Member

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    Because he voted No on the Iraq resolution doesnt mean he should be in ads featuring him and Osama Bin Ladin and called "soft on homeland defense". Especially by people who didnt serve in Vietnam themselves.

    That was disgusting.
     
    #43 Troy McClure, Oct 21, 2003
  4. basso

    basso Member
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    treeman's probably already posted much of this stuff, but there's a great article detailing much of the saddam al queda/terrorist link on techcentralstation.com. the author's Richard Miniter.

    http://www.techcentralstation.com/092503F.html
    --
    The Iraq -- Al Qaeda Connections

    By Richard Miniter
    _Published_
    _09/25/2003_

    Every day it seems another American soldier is killed in Iraq. These grim statistics have become a favorite of network news anchors and political chat show hosts. Nevermind that they mix deaths from accidents with actual battlefield casualties; or that the average is actually closer to one American death for every two days; or that enemy deaths far outnumber ours. What matters is the overall impression of mounting, pointless deaths.

    That is why is important to remember why we fight in Iraq -- and who we fight. Indeed, many of those sniping at U.S. troops are al Qaeda terrorists operating inside Iraq. And many of bin Laden's men were in Iraq prior to the liberation. A wealth of evidence on the public record -- from government reports and congressional testimony to news accounts from major newspapers -- attests to longstanding ties between bin Laden and Saddam going back to 1994.

    Those who try to whitewash Saddam's record don't dispute this evidence; they just ignore it. So let's review the evidence, all of it on the public record for months or years:

    * Abdul Rahman Yasin was the only member of the al Qaeda cell that detonated the 1993 World Trade Center bomb to remain at large in the Clinton years. He fled to Iraq. U.S. forces recently discovered a cache of documents in Tikrit, Saddam's hometown, that show that Iraq gave Mr. Yasin both a house and monthly salary.

    * Bin Laden met at least eight times with officers of Iraq's Special Security Organization, a secret police agency run by Saddam's son Qusay, and met with officials from Saddam's mukhabarat, its external intelligence service, according to intelligence made public by Secretary of State Colin Powell, who was speaking before the United Nations Security Council on February 6, 2003.

    * Sudanese intelligence officials told me that their agents had observed meetings between Iraqi intelligence agents and bin Laden starting in 1994, when bin Laden lived in Khartoum.

    * Bin Laden met the director of the Iraqi mukhabarat in 1996 in Khartoum, according to Mr. Powell.

    * An al Qaeda operative now held by the U.S. confessed that in the mid-1990s, bin Laden had forged an agreement with Saddam's men to cease all terrorist activities against the Iraqi dictator, Mr. Powell told the United Nations.

    * In 1999 the Guardian, a British newspaper, reported that Farouk Hijazi, a senior officer in Iraq's mukhabarat, had journeyed deep into the icy mountains near Kandahar, Afghanistan, in December 1998 to meet with al Qaeda men. Mr. Hijazi is "thought to have offered bin Laden asylum in Iraq," the Guardian reported.

    * In October 2000, another Iraqi intelligence operative, Salah Suleiman, was arrested near the Afghan border by Pakistani authorities, according to Jane's Foreign Report, a respected international newsletter. Jane's reported that Suleiman was shuttling between Iraqi intelligence and Ayman al Zawahiri, now al Qaeda's No. 2 man.

    (Why are all of those meetings significant? The London Observer reports that FBI investigators cite a captured al Qaeda field manual in Afghanistan, which "emphasizes the value of conducting discussions about pending terrorist attacks face to face, rather than by electronic means.")

    * As recently as 2001, Iraq's embassy in Pakistan was used as a "liaison" between the Iraqi dictator and al Qaeda, Mr. Powell told the United Nations.

    * Spanish investigators have uncovered documents seized from Yusuf Galan -- who is charged by a Spanish court with being "directly involved with the preparation and planning" of the Sept. 11 attacks -- that show the terrorist was invited to a party at the Iraqi embassy in Madrid. The invitation used his "al Qaeda nom de guerre," London's Independent reports.

    * An Iraqi defector to Turkey, known by his cover name as "Abu Mohammed," told Gwynne Roberts of the Sunday Times of London that he saw bin Laden's fighters in camps in Iraq in 1997. At the time, Mohammed was a colonel in Saddam's Fedayeen. He described an encounter at Salman Pak, the training facility southeast of Baghdad. At that vast compound run by Iraqi intelligence, Muslim militants trained to hijack planes with knives -- on a full-size Boeing 707. Col. Mohammed recalls his first visit to Salman Pak this way: "We were met by Colonel Jamil Kamil, the camp manager, and Major Ali Hawas. I noticed that a lot of people were queuing for food. (The major) said to me: 'You'll have nothing to do with these people. They are Osama bin Laden's group and the PKK and Mojahedin-e Khalq.'"

    * In 1998, Abbas al-Janabi, a longtime aide to Saddam's son Uday, defected to the West. At the time, he repeatedly told reporters that there was a direct connection between Iraq and al Qaeda.

    *The Sunday Times found a Saddam loyalist in a Kurdish prison who claims to have been Dr. Zawahiri's bodyguard during his 1992 visit with Saddam in Baghdad. Dr. Zawahiri was a close associate of bin Laden at the time and was present at the founding of al Qaeda in 1989.

    * Following the defeat of the Taliban, almost two dozen bin Laden associates "converged on Baghdad and established a base of operations there," Mr. Powell told the United Nations in February 2003. From their Baghdad base, the secretary said, they supervised the movement of men, materiel and money for al Qaeda's global network.

    * In 2001, an al Qaeda member "bragged that the situation in Iraq was 'good,'" according to intelligence made public by Mr. Powell.

    * That same year, Saudi Arabian border guards arrested two al Qaeda members entering the kingdom from Iraq.

    * Abu Musaab al-Zarqawi oversaw an al Qaeda training camp in Afghanistan, Mr. Powell told the United Nations. His specialty was poisons. Wounded in fighting with U.S. forces, he sought medical treatment in Baghdad in May 2002. When Zarqawi recovered, he restarted a training camp in northern Iraq. Zarqawi's Iraq cell was later tied to the October 2002 murder of Lawrence Foley, an official of the U.S. Agency for International Development, in Amman, Jordan. The captured assassin confessed that he received orders and funds from Zarqawi's cell in Iraq, Mr. Powell said. His accomplice escaped to Iraq.

    *Zarqawi met with military chief of al Qaeda, Mohammed Ibrahim Makwai (aka Saif al-Adel) in Iran in February 2003, according to intelligence sources cited by the Washington Post.

    * Mohammad Atef, the head of al Qaeda's military wing until the U.S. killed him in Afghanistan in November 2001, told a senior al Qaeda member now in U.S. custody that the terror network needed labs outside of Afghanistan to manufacture chemical weapons, Mr. Powell said. "Where did they go, where did they look?" said the secretary. "They went to Iraq."

    * Abu Abdullah al-Iraqi was sent to Iraq by bin Laden to purchase poison gases several times between 1997 and 2000. He called his relationship with Saddam's regime "successful," Mr. Powell told the United Nations.

    * Mohamed Mansour Shahab, a smuggler hired by Iraq to transport weapons to bin Laden in Afghanistan, was arrested by anti-Hussein Kurdish forces in May, 2000. He later told his story to American intelligence and a reporter for the New Yorker magazine.

    * Documents found among the debris of the Iraqi Intelligence Center show that Baghdad funded the Allied Democratic Forces, a Ugandan terror group led by an Islamist cleric linked to bin Laden. According to a London's Daily Telegraph, the organization offered to recruit "youth to train for the jihad" at a "headquarters for international holy warrior network" to be established in Baghdad.

    * Mullah Melan Krekar, ran a terror group (the Ansar al-Islam) linked to both bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. Mr. Krekar admitted to a Kurdish newspaper that he met bin Laden in Afghanistan and other senior al Qaeda officials. His acknowledged meetings with bin Laden go back to 1988. When he organized Ansar al Islam in 2001 to conduct suicide attacks on Americans, "three bin Laden operatives showed up with a gift of $300,000 'to undertake jihad,'" Newsday reported. Mr. Krekar is now in custody in the Netherlands. His group operated in portion of northern Iraq loyal to Saddam Hussein -- and attacked independent Kurdish groups hostile to Saddam. A spokesman for the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan told a United Press International correspondent that Mr. Krekar's group was funded by "Saddam Hussein's regime in Baghdad."

    * After October 2001, hundreds of al Qaeda fighters are believed to have holed up in the Ansar al-Islam's strongholds inside northern Iraq.

    Some skeptics dismiss the emerging evidence of a longstanding link between Iraq and al Qaeda by contending that Saddam ran a secular dictatorship hated by Islamists like bin Laden.

    In fact, there are plenty of "Stalin-Roosevelt" partnerships between international terrorists and Muslim dictators. Saddam and bin Laden had common enemies, common purposes and interlocking needs. They shared a powerful hate for America and the Saudi royal family. They both saw the Gulf War as a turning point. Saddam suffered a crushing defeat which he had repeatedly vowed to avenge. Bin Laden regards the U.S. as guilty of war crimes against Iraqis and believes that non-Muslims shouldn't have military bases on the holy sands of Arabia. Al Qaeda's avowed goal for the past ten years has been the removal of American forces from Saudi Arabia, where they stood in harm's way solely to contain Saddam.

    The most compelling reason for bin Laden to work with Saddam is money. Al Qaeda operatives have testified in federal courts that the terror network was always desperate for cash. Senior employees fought bitterly about the $100 difference in pay between Egyptian and Saudis (the Egyptians made more). One al Qaeda member, who was connected to the 1998 embassy bombings, told a U.S. federal court how bitter he was that bin Laden could not pay for his pregnant wife to see a doctor.

    Bin Laden's personal wealth alone simply is not enough to support a profligate global organization. Besides, bin Laden's fortune is probably not as large as some imagine. Informed estimates put bin Laden's pre-Sept. 11, 2001 wealth at perhaps $30 million. $30 million is the budget of a small school district, not a global terror conglomerate. Meanwhile, Forbes estimated Saddam's personal fortune at $2 billion.

    So a common enemy, a shared goal and powerful need for cash seem to have forged an alliance between Saddam and bin Laden. CIA Director George Tenet recently told the Senate Intelligence Committee: "Iraq has in the past provided training in document forgery and bomb making to al Qaeda. It also provided training in poisons and gasses to two al Qaeda associates; one of these [al Qaeda] associates characterized the relationship as successful. Mr. Chairman, this information is based on a solid foundation of intelligence. It comes to us from credible and reliable sources. Much of it is corroborated by multiple sources."

    The Iraqis, who had the Third World's largest poison-gas operations prior to the Gulf War I, have perfected the technique of making hydrogen-cyanide gas, which the Nazis called Zyklon-B. In the hands of al Qaeda, this would be a fearsome weapon in an enclosed space -- like a suburban mall or subway station.
     
    #44 basso, Oct 21, 2003
  5. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    There was a whole other thread on this exact same article once.
     
    #45 SamFisher, Oct 21, 2003
  6. treeman

    treeman Member

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    basso,

    I posted that article a while back, and the Peace Police proclaimed it bunk. When asked why (to SamFisher, spokesman for the Peace Police), they could not answer exactly why it was discredited, just that it was...

    They will never admit that there was a Saddam-Al Qaeda link. They will never accept any evidence at all of such a connection. If we find a tape of Saddam and Osama together tomorrow plotting a nuclear attack on Washington, they will call it an administration forgery in a plot to destroy France.
     
    #46 treeman, Oct 21, 2003
  7. basso

    basso Member
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    sorry i missed that thread- i'd've had your back...
     
    #47 basso, Oct 21, 2003
  8. Major

    Major Member

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    Yeah, I wonder why the military hasn't made it more public, I mean it would be great PR, and they have already been ranting about a vial of botox and a bunch of "mobile weapons trailers" that weren't; jeez, if I could only think of a reason why this hasn't been done...........

    Yeah, there's a reason... Because there's no actual evidence of it. No matter how many times treeman tries to blame the "Peace Police", there's a very, very good reason that Bush and company haven't used this as evidence of why we needed to go war with Iraq. Just like there's very, very good reason why Bush backed away from connecting Al Queda and Iraq.

    Every criticism of the war would die in a nanosecond if this connection was there. So either the connection's not there, or Bush is withholding it for political purposes. I think Bush is not all that bright, but I don't think he's disgusting enough to lie to the American people for the latter.
     
    #48 Major, Oct 21, 2003
  9. basso

    basso Member
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    actually, he said there's no evidence of iraqi complicity in the atrocities of 9/11. i believe they still stand by the iraq al queda connections.
     
    #49 basso, Oct 21, 2003
  10. treeman

    treeman Member

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    No evidence my ass. There is quite a bit of evidence. What do you want, documents? OK, here.

    Here's one that although it got a little national airtime, curiously appears to have gone unnoticed here:

    Document links Saddam, bin Laden

    By GILBERT S. MERRITT
    For The Tennessean

    Federal appellate Judge Gilbert S. Merritt of Nashville is in Iraq as one of 13 experts selected by the U.S. Justice Department to help rebuild Iraq's judicial system.

    Merritt, 67, has made trips to Russia and India to work with their judicial systems. He has been sending periodic reports to The Tennessean about his experiences in Iraq and filed this dispatch recently    :

    Through an unusual set of circumstances, I have been given documentary evidence of the names and positions of the 600 closest people in Iraq to Saddam Hussein, as well as his ongoing relationship with Osama bin Laden.

    I am looking at the document as I write this story from my hotel room overlooking the Tigris River in Baghdad.

    One of the lawyers with whom I have been working for the past five weeks had come to me and asked me whether a list of the 600 people closest to Saddam Hussein would be of any value now to the Americans.

    I said, yes, of course. He said that the list contained not only the names of the 55 ''deck of cards'' players who have already been revealed, but also 550 others.

    When I began questioning him about the list, how he obtained it and what else it showed, he asked would it be of interest to the Americans to know that Saddam had an ongoing relationship with Osama bin Laden.

    I said yes, the Americans have, so far as I am aware, have never been able to prove that relationship, but the president and others have said that they believe it exists. He said, ''Well, judge, there is no doubt it exists, and I will bring you the proof tomorrow.''

    So today he brought me the proof, and there is no doubt in my mind that he is right.

    The document shows that an Iraqi intelligence officer, Abid Al-Karim Muhamed Aswod, assigned to the Iraq embassy in Pakistan, is ''responsible for the coordination of activities with the Osama bin Laden group.''

    The document shows that it was written over the signature of Uday Saddam Hussein, the son of Saddam Hussein. The story of how the document came about is as follows.

    Saddam gave Uday authority to control all press and media outlets in Iraq. Uday was the publisher of the Babylon Daily Political Newspaper.

    On the front page of the paper's four-page edition for Nov. 14, 2002, there was a picture of Osama bin Laden speaking, next to which was a picture of Saddam and his ''Revolutionary Council,'' together with stories about Israeli tanks attacking a group of Palestinians.

    On the back page was a story headlined ''List of Honor.'' In a box below the headline was ''A list of men we publish for the public.'' The lead sentence refers to a list of ''regime persons'' with their names and positions.

    The list has 600 names and titles in three columns. It contains, for example, the names of the important officials who are members of Saddam's family, such as Uday, and then other high officials, including the 55 American ''deck of cards'' Iraqi officials, some of whom have been apprehended.

    Halfway down the middle column is written: ''Abid Al-Karim Muhamed Aswod, intelligence officer responsible for the coordination of activities with the Osama bin Laden group at the Iraqi embassy in Pakistan.'' (For more about the list, see accompanying article on this page.)

    The lawyer who brought the newspaper to me, Samir, and another lawyer with whom I have been working, Zuhair, translated the Arabic words and described what had happened in Baghdad the day it was published.

    Samir bought his paper at a newsstand at around 8 a.m. Within two hours, the Iraqi intelligence officers were going by every newsstand in Baghdad and confiscating the papers. They also went to the home of every person who they were told received a paper that day and confiscated it.

    The other lawyer, Zuhair, who was the counsel for the Arab League in Baghdad, did not receive delivery of his paper that day. He called his vendor, who told him that there would be no paper that day, a singular occurrence he could not explain.

    For the next 10 days, the paper was not published at all. Samir's newspaper was not confiscated and he retained it because it contained this interesting ''Honor Roll of 600'' of the people closest to the regime.

    The only explanation for this strange set of events, according to the Iraqi lawyers, is that Uday, an impulsive and somewhat unbalanced individual, decided to publish this honor roll at a time when the regime was under worldwide verbal attack in the press, especially by us. It would, he thought, make them more loyal and supportive of the regime.

    His father was furious, knowing that it revealed information about his supporters that should remain secret.

    For example, at the same time this was published, Saddam was denying that he had any relationship with Osama. Therefore Saddam had all the papers confiscated, and he ordered that publication of the paper be stopped for 10 days.

    That is the story of the ''Honor Roll of 600,'' and why I believe that President Bush was right when he alleged that Saddam was in cahoots with Osama and was coordinating activities with him.

    It does not prove that they engaged together in any particular act of terror against the United States.

    But it seems to me to be strong proof that the two were in contact and conspiring to perform terrorist acts.

    Up until this time, I have been skeptical about these claims. Now I have changed my mind. There is, however, one big problem remaining: They are both still at large and the combined forces of the free world have been unable to find them.

    Until we find and capture them, they will remain a threat — Saddam with the remnants of his army and supporters in combination with the worldwide terrorist organization of Osama bin Laden.

    http://tennessean.com/nation-world/archives/03/06/34908297.shtml?Element_ID=34908297

    No evidence my ass. More on that story:

    http://tennessean.com/nation-world/archives/03/06/34908298.shtml?Element_ID=34908298
     
    #50 treeman, Oct 21, 2003
  11. treeman

    treeman Member

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    And note that Judge Merritt is a lifelong Democrat. Not that it matters...
     
    #51 treeman, Oct 21, 2003
  12. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"
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    Major, how many doses of common sense can you dispense in one day? You're saving so many threads.

    By the way, just as I will not absolutely claim these articles are bunk (I just don't know), how can anyone claim they are abso-freakin-lutely true? If I was an Iraqi defector, I would say *whatever* the heck I needed to say to make sure the US would attack Iraq. Defectors aren't exactly heralded as bastions of objectivity (well, by analytical minds anyway). None of the tracking data on the 9-11 hijackers has them in Iraq in the years leading up to the attack, or are there big chunks of time unaccounted for in there?

    Okay, flame away, now that you have one another's backs. All I'm saying is, these sources don't seem easy to disprove or easy to verify. Finally, Major's point is the most appropriate. Why won't Bush use these "facts?"

    PS -- treeman, if you're going to add inflamatory rhetoric, I expect something much more imaginative that the "peace police." :)
     
    #52 B-Bob, Oct 21, 2003
  13. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    [​IMG]
     
    #53 SamFisher, Oct 21, 2003
  14. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"
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    hey tree,

    thanks for the merritt piece. I'm going to look a bit more into that one. Maybe I'm a homer, but I'll put more stock in merritt than the defectors.
     
    #54 B-Bob, Oct 21, 2003
  15. treeman

    treeman Member

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    B-Bob:

    If you've got several different witnesses who don't know each other, have never met each other, and they all say the same thing, and then you take pictures that confirm what they've told you, then you have to credit their stories with some level of believability. To simply discount them for no good reason other than "Well, why hasn't anyone told us about this?" is not enough, especially when the information has been there all along.

    And I just like the way "Peace Police" sounds. It has a nice ring to it, and I think the "police" part is representative of the peacenik side to selectively pick and choose what bits they do and do not believe. For example, believing that Bush lied, when no evidence supports that idea, and disbelieving in an Iraq-Al Qaeda connection, when quite a bit of evidence supports that one. They are the police of what it believable and what is not.

    I thought it was nicer than my second choice, "Thought Police". Besides, that one was taken.
     
    #55 treeman, Oct 21, 2003
  16. SamFisher

    SamFisher Member

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    What about the Rashomon Bizarro Deniers?
     
    #56 SamFisher, Oct 21, 2003
  17. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"
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    I want to stick with Merritt. The guy's old (about 68?), but seems very lucid. He pulled for Al Gore and is an old friend of the Gore family. According to some, he was once considered so highly as to be on track for a supreme court position.

    One reason we didn't hear any more from him was a gag order issued by the governing authority in Iraq. Read the link -- Merritt condemns the gag, calls it unconstitutional, but says he will follow the order so that he can stay in Iraq. It's pretty interesting to me.

    sorry, fellow Rashomon Bizarro Deniers, but the story is interesting. Maybe some Iraqi/CIA-operative pulled the wool over Merritt's eyes, but that's a stretch, if you ask me. Could be legit.
     
    #57 B-Bob, Oct 21, 2003
  18. treeman

    treeman Member

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    B-Bob:

    You are the first Peace Police Officer to even consider any of this evidence. The first one to not just idly sweep it under the carpet. I love you, man.
     
    #58 treeman, Oct 21, 2003
  19. basso

    basso Member
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    the sources quoted in the article that began this thread are not defectors, but former intelligence agents still in iraq.

    i do find it interesting that the PP crowd won't believe any of this evidence because the administration hasn't cited it in its contention that iraq and al queda had ties, yet Bush Lied is their reaction to every other administration justification for the war.

    maybe we should call them "Marie and the Antoinettes" since they like to have their (yellow) cake and eat it too...
     
    #59 basso, Oct 21, 2003
  20. B-Bob

    B-Bob "94-year-old self-described dreamer"
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    Dude, don't get all slobbery on me!

    Anyway, why the gag order? I suppose, cynically, it's to keep any bad news under control. But it looks like it might control some really important "good" news too.

    Unlike some of the stories I've seen, this is a new kind of believable, especially down to the level of detail that the heading of the newspaper columns doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Real items almost always have some idiosyncratic crap in them. Real stories can rarely be boiled down simply to a catchy headline.

    This is so weird, like the Bushies went into a laboratory and said "what kind of story would we need to convince that B-Bob guy?" Mwa-ha-ha!
     
    #60 B-Bob, Oct 21, 2003
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