[IRAQ] US Forces with an example of "Collateral Damage"

If it is an illegal order you can refuse. Which is the illegal order here? Specifically? And by illegal I mean the universal definition of illegal that everybody shares, not your conspiracy-theory version of the law.

 

"Thou shalt not kill". Peace.

 

This is exactly what is wrong with this incident.

The United States is not warring for warring's sake. Right now, Iraq should be viewed as more of a peacekeeping operation then a shoot em up game.

Incidents like these (and we have no reason to believe this is isolated) will simply prolong the war and end up depositing more American troops into their graves. Simple as that. In the long run (my own long-winded thoughts on this), I don't believe people will forget or forgive as easily as we would expect them to.

This could have been very simply avoided. Warnings, warning shots etc. and then maybe the helicopter that wasn't being fired on would've figured out they were confronting two unarmed journalists and a bunch of civilians.

 

Did David kill Goliath???

 

why exactly are we at war with iraq?




That video is sickening btw.

 

Keep in mind that this incident occurred 3 years ago.

 

It will be repeated. By the U.S., by Russia, by freaking Timbukto, China, India, Iraq, and any military in the world.

There's no justification or cover-up needed to know that this crap happens, it happens ALL THE TIME. It's more the norm than anything. You think military commanders wait around to figure out if a guy is carrying an RPG or not?

In war, when your life is on the line, you assume the worst.

It's better to kill then be killed, and frankly, with as fast as things are moving, you really don't have time to pontificate.

Innocent people die in war. It's not just collateral damage, it's indifferent damage for the most part. Human life is only valued by the fuss is made in losing it.

We for-went the lives of these people when we decided that it was ok to invade Iraq in the first place.

Blame the soldiers? Please - that's a cop out. Who know who is to blame? It's us. For supporting this stupid pointless war after 9/11. We said "Go ahead, kick their butts" - to think that innocent people wouldn't die is naive.

This blood isn't just on the military hands, it's on every citizen who supported that war. You don't think so? Why don't you ask terrorists groups what they think. You think they blame the soldiers? You think Iraqis are like, "those American SOLDIERS are bad, but American people are good?"

 

While I agree with some of what you are saying. You think the soldiers have a free pass to kill? They are literally begging for the kill order, laughing and treating the whole thing like a video game.

Whoever gave the command to execute should be discharged from the military.

 

Who gives a damn what you expect?

The point you're talking about where it appears to be an RPG is the same one I am. It did look like it and who knows how the posters in here would react in that situation. Not being funny, but when I first saw that, I thought that would be a scary sight in the aircraft.

I can see your point and agree that after the first firing, they could have held off on the van. Then again I just feel like we don't know the whole story. Both sides of the political spectrum are full of ignorant people who think they know it all and their side is totally correct. I prefer to take the route of I don't know all the details. Very rarely are things black and white.

The same way people criticize the government for tailoring their stories, the other side can do the same. In the end, shooting the van didn't seem totally necessary, but I wasn't there so I reserve judgement.

As for the language, is it bothersome? I guess that depends on your perspective. Like you said, everyone has their own opinion. I personally don't think its going to win the hearts of your average American, but it doesn't really bother me. These guys aren't there to be PC, thats not their job. They appeared to follow protocol looking at the video.

It just bugs me how quick people are to say they don't support the military after seeing a video like this. Seems to be a bit of a knee jerk reaction. What about day to day ops? If this were so normal, why are people up in arms about it? You can disagree with the policies and us being there in the first place, I just say lets hold off on demonizing the guys fighting on behalf of the country.

 

Hahaha...hahahahahahahahahaha.
Oh, good, conspiracy theorists here. Entertain me.

Remind me where there is a law against killing. In warfare. Kthxbai.

Completely disagree. I see an RPG in that video, in particular this image:

How? If those guys that the marines saw had indeed been insurgents, and you fire warnings shots, congrats, you let a bunch of insurgents get away.

 

You know what my response is? Don't ****ing help the insurgents then.

I have a few buddies in Iraq, and they've told me that frankly they hate all the Iraqis in general. The civilian populace b****es to them all the time about how they dislike the insurgents and that they want them gone, but they don't ever lift a ****ing finger about it and frankly help the insurgents through omission, through not telling the Americans about ambushes, through not telling them where the ******* guerillas are, and so on and so on, and so my buddies have lost comrades due to this. The Iraqi populace as a whole genuinely does not give a **** whether the American soldier lives or dies, which means that from the perspective of my buddies, why should they care about whether the Iraqi lives or dies?

I think Iraq was a mistake, but ultimately this is war. **** happens. And if you're going to be angry at American soldiers because **** happens, then **** off. Maybe I'm just bitter.

Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

 

^^^^ Damn Right!!!

 

I think the biggest problem here is that we have different expectations of our soldiers. We watch shows like Band of Brothers and Hurt Locker and expect that even though they're hot headed sometimes, they act in a professional demeanor when counts. I remember watching "Casualties of War and Platoon" where the good guy did he must with reservations and a heavy heart, while the bad guy, though also American soldiers, reveling in death.

The demeanor and the attitude in the clip of american soldiers was different than how "the good" guys was suppose to act even if they didn't break any ROE. We're not use to hearing things like "I think I ran over a body" then giggle about it. It was more like 18 year old skaters at a park... and that's what they were, ~18 year old. We're shocked because it goes against our senses of what a good guy is suppose to be.

Combine it with Abu Grab, My Lai, etc It becomes equalizing in a way, to show that we're not so different then the "bad guys," and truly, it hurts our own pride.

 

Really your going to tell me to F off b/c I'm pist at these American Soldiers?
"**** happens" is not an excuse for what they did here today.

You want Iraqi civilians to help out American soldiers by informing them of ambushes and basically ratting out the insurgent and you say that because they don't why should American soldiers care about them. Well let's say they do help out the American soldiers by informing them of ambushes and warning them of insurgents...what happens after they inform the American soldiers? You think the soldiers are gonna give a damn about the safety that Iraqi civilian later on? You telling me that if the insurgents don't find out that some civilian screwed up their plans that they are not going to kill that civilian?

It's not about the civilians not helping the Americans by warning them of ambushes etc...it's about the civilians looking out for their own a**.

Try to be a little bit more open minded...try to put yourself in their shoes...try to imagine what it would be like living in a war zone. You have never had to experience another country invading your home and killing people in your neighborhood....can you even imagine it? I swear sometimes people are so damn insensitive.

 

Just some friendly civilians and reporters walking around with RPGs and grenade launchers. No threat at all.

 

At what point in the video was that... timewise

 

From the DoD investigative report on the incident:

Wikilinks needs to issue a retraction, and some posters here should apologize for besmirching our soldiers without the facts.

 

3:45

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Go watch the video. You'll see that an insurgent with an RPG ducks behind a building. Second later the helicopter pilot sees someone laying down on the ground behind that same building pointing something at the Humvee. You then hear him yell, "He's got an RPG."


http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/201889.php

 

Aren't we suppose to be over there helping the Iraqi people though? Seems like a lost cause if you are fighting off guerrillas and yet don't care about the people in the area. Regardless if your hated or not the "official" reason we are over there is to help the Iraqi people. And saying sh** happens during war is no right to shoot at people simply trying to help the wounded. That video makes my heart hurt.