New Yorker, So why exactly is that a problem? What does religion have to do with anything concerning income. I find it appalling that someone even bothers to try to track that data. To me it sounds like whining.... "WAH...the jews have more than we do...wahhhhhhh !!!" DD
They track the income earnings of every major ethnic group in the U.S., not just Jewish-Americans. Just to give an example, here's a pretty detailed overview of the Muslim American demographic: http://www.allied-media.com/AM/default.htm
But how can it be accurate? They would be relying on people volunteering their religious preference.... I mean where do they get the stats? The companies they work for are barred from asking about religious preference. DD
It's tracked as Jews as a "race" not a religion. Anyway, the point is that Ottoman was saying Jews are like African Americans in that they need special privledges and protections because they are an oppressed group and because of the Holocaust. My point is that they are doing very well for themselves and do not need any kind of favors. Do you really find it appalling that Jews income is tracked? Anymore then Indians, Philopino's, or Hispanics?
I read all three of the articles that you sited and apparently I read something different from you. The three articles indicate that Jews in the United States have higher than average median income. The causes as indicated in at least one of the three articles are: Greater than average age. This doesn't indicate anything but a longer than average period of time in which to accumulate savings. Fewer than average number of children. This is not an indicator of how much they make, but rather how much disposable income they have. Higher than average education and percentage of people in professional fields. This comes closest to satisfying your conditions but still is not an indicator of wealth or privilege. It indicates instead a cultural emphasis on education and the results of hard work. "Professional" people on average have an upper middle class income; this still doesn’t indicate any great wealth or any sort of particular privilege. There is no indication that any of these people are particularly rich. Furthermore, people like doctors, while they can make quite a bit of money, aren't particularly well connected or powerful. Even then, your articles are all limited to the United States. It makes no indication of worldwide empowerment or wealth. Further more I don't see how any of this invalidates concerns of Anti-Semitism and a hatred so strong that it enables one to pretend that 6 million deaths didn't happen, or to imply that, like an Ann Coulter's paranoid delusions about "privledged Trade Center Widows", Jews are just profiting off of misplaced sympathy. In fact I think there are quite a few parallels between several of the Iranian cartoons and Ann Coulter's bizarre 'blame the victim' twisted hateful mentality. With a whole lot "creative interpretation" of the initial terms of your false premise, you have come close to proving something on technical grounds, but it doesn't in any way indicate Jews are "the most empowered and richest group of people on earth..." much less in the United States which has been historically one of the most Jewish friendly nations on the earth. As far as I can tell, you have just proven that through hard work, education, and the egalitarian ideals of The United States of America, Jews have been able to overcome historical biases and thrive when they are given a decent chance. Good for them. As far as I can see that new state of being is still in a precarious and freshly formed state. Would really be so difficult to return the world to it's state of 70 or so years ago that we should ignore any sort of concern for Jewish hatred?
Well considering that being Jewish is not a race, but rather a choice, then yes. Actually, the Jews in the Middle East are the same as the Muslims over there, their family trees mix back and forth, which is why it is amazing to me that there is such a cultural clash over Israel. I really wish they would blow up all the religious shrines, just like the Taliban did to the Buddhist shrines....that way there is nothing to fight about. DD
I am not advocating Jewish hatred, I am only recognizing the power an influence they hold is greater then any other group. They are the most empowered and richest group. Why that constitutes hatred to you is beyond my understanding. Let's look at some more facts I got from googling: Jews make up less then 2% of the U.S. population, but.... Forty-five percent of the top 40 of the Forbes 400 richest Americans are Jewish. One-third of American multimillionaires are tallied as Jewish. Twenty percent of professors at leading universities are Jewish. Forty percent of partners in the leading law firms in New York and Washington are Jewish! Thirty percent of American Nobel prize winners in science and 25 percent of all American Nobel winners are Jewish. http://home.comcast.net/~neoeugenics/poj.htm It makes these number remarkable and truly shows that Jews are a very powerful group within our country. They form the backbone of our intelligencia, are writers, journalists, professionals, CEO's, etc. So I don't understand why you take issue with my original statement and why you feel Jews need additional privledges!!!! This isn't about hate, this is about saying Jews shouldn't be treated any differently then anyone else. You are in fact favoring discrimination by advocating special protections and privledges.
Because people like to divide in the "us vs. them" mentality. It's all so stupid. Israel is such a tiny piece of land. I think Muslims really don't care about Israel, it's more about how the west has viewed them for the last 100 years.
LOL. You include a link to a page that is called Neo-Eugenics and includes a favorable review of a book called Hitler as Philosophe: Remnants of the Enlightenment in National Socialism, a book that apparently describes Hitler as a misunderstood philosophical genius, and it's not about hate? This thread has suddently taken a turn to the bizarre. I feel like I'm reliving the movie "The Producers". In short I trust your pro-Nazi site statistics about as much as I am beginning to trust you. It is apparent to me that you want to believe that the Jews are all running the country from some little room and hording all their coins.
Ottomaton, I think your characterization of NewYorker as sort of being "pro-Nazi" is off mark. I remember there was thread a year ago on the topic of allowing Neo-Nazi marching in minority neighbourhood, NewYorker was among those who vehemently opposed to the decision by local authority to let the march take place in the name of freedom of speech.
I have no problem letting Nazis say whatever they want. But when someone sites racial statistics taken from a website that is run by people openly sympathetic with Hitler they are either: People who subscribe to such philosophies or People who are not critical enough in their reading to determine when a source is trustworthy. In either case their opinion and statements of fact are immediately suspect. As far as calling him a Nazi, I did no such thing. I did point out that he was quoting a website that is very openly associating itself with Nazis and Nazi beliefs. I also said that I believe him to have a preconceived bias in approaching the issue. New Yorker is free to say whatever he wants. I will gladly let him continue to dig his own grave.
Holocaust denial is evil and repugnant. However the cartoons shouldn't be censored. Free speech isn't just speech I agree with, or even speech that isn't offensive to most people. These cartoons are part of a news story and should be readily available so people can see for themselves.
I may risk my own reputation in this regard but I would like to point out the statements highlighted by NewYorker in post #70 don't seem to be opinions, rather, they are facts. Plus, they are the only thing NewYorker quoted from that website. What I am saying is if the Sun does indeed rise from East, it doesn't matter whether it was said by Hitler, Saddam, or Bin Laden, it's still an undeniable fact. To dismiss it simply because it was uttered by someone you abhor smacks of naivete, to say the least.
I didn't look at the site's content...just for documented facts and using google. I really don't have the time to put together a research paper from "trustworthy" sources. If you have doubts...you can do your own investigation. I've seen similar data points from other sources: One that in 1960 Jews made up 40% of U.S. millionaries. You have yet to bring up any facts to counter the ones I have raised. I don't know why you are stating what I want to believe. It's really bizzare and strange to me. I haven't stated any believe to be honest, I'm only trying to establish that Jews are a very empowered and rich group in this country. And that's true. I've brought up numerous facts from various sources and you just find ways to rationalize them and go on the counter attack .... WITHOUT ANY EVIDENCE OF YOUR OWN! Resorting to name calling and accusations isn't going to promote greater awareness and understanding. Rational discussion will. You made a claim that Jews deserve special privledges because they are oppressed like blacks. I'm am only trying to challenge that claim. Somehow you find that I must have something against Jews to do that. Your reaction is a bit disturbing. If we can not free discuss sensitive issues without personalizing them, then we're losing something. I'm seeking discourse here....
Holocaust denial is simply irrational. People who deny it are the type of people who believe no Jews died in the world trade center. When I counter that I attended the cermonies of a few Jews who died...their reaction is still to believe that no Jews were killed...or that my friends must have not got the news because they were on vacation or something. They are just trapped into a delusional reality. The only thing I want to see is a constitent application of the ideas of Free Speech. Will those papers that published the cartoons making fun of Allah print the ones mocking the Holocaust? If they do not, it lends credence to Muslim's claim that the western press is unfair. What does that mean? Nothing...just that our press is unfair.
http://www.theunjustmedia.com/ben stein on jewish media control.htm Now there is a stat in there from research by 60 minutes that 60% of the most important positions in Hollywood are held by Jews. The articles is written by Ben Stein. He actually concludes that the premise that "Jews run Hollywood" as ridiculous - and with that I agree. However, it does show that Jews are very influential in the media sector. Once again, they as a whole are an empowered group. Which isn't a bad thing. Remember the argument here is "does Jews need some kind of affirmative action". I think when they hold 60% of Hollywood you would tend to think not. By the way, Marlo Brando does bring up an interesting point. You have a lot of stereotypes in Hollywood on every minority except.... Again, I know Ottomon will respond by saying I'm an anti-semite and have a chip on my shoulder...blah blah blah...but the real point is to demonstrate that Jews are not in need of any preferential treatment as they are fine and successful on their own and have a strong community to protest and influence media. Let's count have many North American newspapers carried the Iranian cartoons. Anyone have an answer? A few American news sources did carry the cartoons, but most did not. However, what would have to those few American new sources if they decided to carry the Holocaust cartoons? They didn't. Personally, I'm glad the U.S. took the higher road on both cartoons. While I believe in free speech, i think both sets of cartoons are actualy nothing more then anything to drive hate and anger. However; they should be defeated with reason, not emotion.
I don't beleive to any great extent, although they are all related as semites anyway. Genetic studies appear to show that historical Jewish communities around the world (with a few exceptions, including possibly Iran) have avoided marrying outside of their communities. Also, 'Jewish is not a race' ... what defines a race for you? Do you differentiate between race and ethnicity? And fwiw Jews may say you're not 'Jewish' unless you follow Judaism, but Jewish families can be traced back even using genetics. Seems like there really needs to be another term, but with the lack of one, 'Jewish' must be also used to refer to ancestry w/o regards to religion.
