If anyone is interested in seeing what the cartoons are, I found some of them here: http://www.israelnewsagency.com/iranholocaustcartoonsisraelseo48480207.html. Warning: It also has some depressing Holocaust photos.
Wait. you're saying Jews...the most empowered and richest group of people on earth...still deserve preferential treatment because of the Halocaust and what the Nazis did to them? And you're drawing an analogy to the poorest group in America - African Americans and saying that it's the same as opposing affirmative action? Wow...I'm speechless. Do you advocate then that Native Americans and other groups that have experience genocide - such as the Chinese and many in Africa....be given the same preferential treatment??? Or is it just Jews?
This is the original argument for fomenting hatred of Jews; the ideas that the Jews are the richest group in the world, privileged, and somehow control everything behind the scenes. It goes back all the way to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and they were saying it in Germany even as they were starving Jews to death in ghettos. It has never been true. The difficult part with some of these untruths is that it is difficult to separate the type of people who create and spread these untruths with the victims of their misinformation, so I am conflicted in how to respond. I can say that along these lines I have never had a constructive dialogue. I think if you really want to know the truth and would like to do some research on your own you will find that there is ample proof that your statement is factually incorrect. But of course you can continue to believe whatever lies you want.
To elaborate, what I am saying is when people say things like, "White people dance funny." I don't worry too much about it. When people say, "Black people are all lazy and on welfare." it is more important to say something about it, because history has shown that the spread of beliefs such as this have ended badly. The same thing goes for the idea that Jews are privileged, rich, controlling the media, making up stuff about the holocaust, and are greedy misers." When people say crap like that it is important to stop it quickly because hating black people and Jews is apparently a very seductive concept for people, and these ideas which are not true have the tenacity of weeds in the garden. Like a good gardener, I become more aggressive in treating weeds in my rose garden as those weeds become both a greater hazard to my roses, and more tenacious in returning after I think I’ve killed them. (I do have a rose garden, btw, so this is not an idle analogy.)
What on earth are you talking about? Jews are the highest income earners in America right up there with Indians. That's a fact man. Check the census.
But it's ok to spread the idea that Muslims are all terrorists? I mean, you're argument is a paradox - don't you see? And please, everyone knows that the ADL and AIPAC have immense clout in our govermental and societal institutions. Far more then the NAACP and perhaps even the ACLU.
I'm not quite sure where I exactly said that. Could you point it out for me? As an ACLU memeber I firmly believe that this is not the case. That having been said, if you could provide some quantifiable references I would be glad to look at them and possibly rethink.
I just spent time at www.census.gov which has all the government census data. They have no data correlating religion and income as far as I can tell. If you can find it, please feel free to tell me where it is.
The whole premise of the debate on here is why is it acceptable to have cartoons making fun of allah and muslims but not that of jews....If one is ok, then so is the other. It's the double standard we're all debating. I'm not sure which ranks as the most powerful lobbying group, but AIPAC and ADL are WAY up there. Do they have impact on what mainstream newspapers can print - of course they do! So does the NAACP. But these lobbying groups have huge influences in congress and policy as well. This is not some conspiracy theroy.
No. The debate is about cartoons that are disrespectful of a religion vs. cartoons denying that 6 million people died. Denying a genocide happened is quantifiably different from being disrespectful. If they were cartoons about how funny the Jew's god is and how those peyas look silly then that would be an opinion and would be a reasonable response.
Ottomaton, your last several posts beginning with, "I just want to step back for a second with a parallel..." rank as some of the best posts I've ever had the pleasure of reading on this BBS. It is a shame that many are unwilling to even attempt an understanding... Kudos to you sir.
Ottomaton, You're right that they are not all necessarily 'the same', simply because of the 'sensitivity' factor involved here. But again, that IS sort of the point, isn't it? The two sides (the West and the Islamic world, that is) have done a pretty poor job at maintaining a certain degree of mutual respect. However, you should understand that to most Muslims, the mocking of the prophet or other sacred religious figures is as bad as it gets; much of the Muslim world lives by the traditional 'code of honor', which basically says that a man would rather "die with dignity than live as a coward," so in some extreme cases death is easier to take than a figurative 'slap to the face'. Short of understanding this you will have a hard time understanding why some Muslims would react the way they did. To many of them, mocking the prophet is as bad as denying the Holocaust, just because it doesn't "seem" that way to the average non-Muslim European or American doesn't mean that it's to be dismissed. Just thought I would throw my two cents in...there is plenty of hypocrisy from both sides.
I still don't understand it. I don't understand it because once you justify things in the name of honor, it becomes nebulous and subjective. Gangs have their own code of honor, and innocent bystanders get gunned down. Policemen have the thin blue line and justify corrupt cops with it. How many Gwayneco-related articles are about honor killings? A westerner might place more upon the honor of being a father or brother to defend his sister than any sense of preserving family honor. And does this code of dignity mean the Iraqis respect the Americans who claim they're there because of 9/11? Didn't the Bushies claim that if we didn't retaliate the terrorists would consider us cowards and be emboldened? How does the Terror War and retaliatory responses fit into this code? If it's personally subjective, then any response can appear unproportional. I have my personal sense of honor. Given its nature, I don't think I can use it when facing consequences that are from owning up to it. I honestly don't understand it. Don't take it as criticism.
Some of the Cartoons are about denying the Holocaust. Some are about how Jews have used it as leverage. Some are about the hyprocrisy about how Jews can remember the holocaust but not glean the lessons from it and apply it towards others. Frankly, I think both are disrepectful and both are gross and nasty in nature. But to debate which is worse is just non-sense - because it's all a matter of perspective and personal values. For all you know, Muslims may be more offensed then Jews. You simply can't say which is worse. I can't argue with someone who's self-righteous.
Jews have a median income of 50K. Which ranks them as 2nd or 3rd in the U.S. You can google it and find it somewhere. I remember reading it in Newsweek about 3 or 4 years ago. I'm not into digging up facts as the onus isn't on me to prove anything, it's on you as you are the one calling me an anti-semite. You are the one who needs to back up your claim. I hope that no one in life has to defend themselves against baseless and caustic attacks such as the ones you make. It's not my responsibility to educate you. Learn the facts before you respond and assume.
Thats true. the Northen iranian are as white as anyone. the indo- europians were originally from persia. infact in croatia, there have been finds linking origanlity as persian's.
Yep. He has always been a top poster in this forum. His facts and logic generally inescapable...yet some people manage to escape.
From my perch in the grandstand, it looks like Ottomaton has the upper hand. He cited the U.S. Census as not having that information and you cited an undefined Newsweek report. It is up to you to find an authoritative source on Jewish income statistics to back your argument. BTW, I missed the part where he labeled you an anti-semite. I believe I understand the gist of what you are trying to say. However, you are not approaching Ottomaton's level of logic.
He cited that he couldn't find it. That doesn't mean it's not there. It is in fact there. This is ridiculous...ok, here's a quick search on google: http://www.ujc.org/content_display.html?ArticleID=83794 http://www.slate.com/id/2131129/ http://www.myjewishlearning.com/history_community/Modern/Overview_The_Story_19481980/America.htm By the late twentieth cen*tury, Jewish median income exceeded that of non‑Jews of almost every ethnic and religious background.
